Develop module Hopefully, a Simple Mouse Question

[hrboyce]

Lightroom Version Number

12.2 [ 202302032259-eb84d255 ]

Operating System

1. macOS 13 Ventura

I am using a new Mac with OS Ventura for the first time having moved from windows. I have a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse attached. When editing or navigating in LrC the scroll wheel does not function as expected. From "Missing Fact" it says: "As well as the slider, you can also use the [ and ] keys or scroll the mouse wheel to increase and decrease the size of the brush". The fact of the matter is the scroll button only ends up scrolling the develop panels.

Anyone have any ideas where a setting needs to be changed in either Lightroom or the OS or if there is some other Mac specific key that needs to be pressed at the same time?
The hand cramps I am getting trying to manipulate the sliders with a mouse are ruining the experience of having a brand new MBP M2 to work with in lightroom.
In case it would matter - I did reverse the default direction of the scroll wheel to match the behavior in Windows - been using a mouse that way more than 25 years its just to weird to have it work any other way.

 

[Gnits]

Does your mouse / keyboard come with software to configure the mouse keys / functions / sensitivity. Some mice can also be calibrated to optimise their behaviour relative to the surface the mouse is used on.

Some time ago, I purchased a gaming mouse, mainly to be able to have a few extra programmable keys, but was gobsmacked by the massive improvement in the preciseness and ease of use of the new mouse. The mouse came with configuration software, including options to configure the mouse to behave differently for different applications.

 

[hrboyce]

Thanks for the response
No not for the Mac, in Windows yes. It is a Microsoft Precision Mouse, I haven't tried another one yet that will be my next step. This mouse is quite comfortable to use and is my preferred device if I can make it work properly in LR

 

[clee01l]

It is a Microsoft Precision Mouse

This is probably your problem. Apple treats pointing devices differently from Microsoft. That means some Microsoft Controls might be missing from the Apple driver, simply because those functions do not exist in the OS API.
There are Pointer control settings listed in Preferences (At least there are for my Trackpad and Magic Mouse) . Scroll speed is found under Accessibility in Preferences. On my iMac, I use a separate Apple Trackpad with all of the control I need available for one, two or four fingers. Apple may not recognize a scroll wheel at all since these are never found on their products. The Magic Mouse has its own scroll gestures.

That said, none of my trackpad gestures will change the size of the brush unless the size control of the brush has the pointer focus. This is because the mouse works with the principle function of "hasFocus". This means when the pointer is in the image window, the Image 'hasFocus'. not the brush size control. Only when moving to the Brush control area of the window does the mouse have focus on the control slider. Try placing the pointer in the value field of your brush control. The pointer should change to L/R arrows. I can swipe Left or Swipe Right on my trackpad to decrease or increase the size of the brush.

Your MBP should have a keyboard and a trackpad built in. Try using the built in trackpad as I described above

 

[Gnits]

I use the following device for several reasons.

1. Programmable keys.
2. Precision and speed of response
3. Works without cable and recharges when usb cable plugged in.
4. The extra scroll wheel is superb and programmable.
5. Designed to work for Mac or Win.

One negative is that the supplied usb key is usb type a. Not ideal if migrating all peripherals to usb c. Also, no where to store this little usb fob, so easily misplaced if not used.

https://www.logitech.com/en-eu/products/mice/mx-master-3s.910-006559.html

 

[hrboyce]

This is probably your problem. Apple treats pointing devices differently from Microsoft. That means some Microsoft Controls might be missing from the Apple driver, simply because those functions do not exist in the OS API.
There are Pointer control settings listed in Preferences (At least there are for my Trackpad and Magic Mouse) . Scroll speed is found under Accessibility in Preferences. On my iMac, I use a separate Apple Trackpad with all of the control I need available for one, two or four fingers. Apple may not recognize a scroll wheel at all since these are never found on their products. The Magic Mouse has its own scroll gestures.

That said, none of my trackpad gestures will change the size of the brush unless the size control of the brush has the pointer focus. This is because the mouse works with the principle function of "hasFocus". This means when the pointer is in the image window, the Image 'hasFocus'. not the brush size control. Only when moving to the Brush control area of the window does the mouse have focus on the control slider. Try placing the pointer in the value field of your brush control. The pointer should change to L/R arrows. I can swipe Left or Swipe Right on my trackpad to decrease or increase the size of the brush.

Your MBP should have a keyboard and a trackpad built in. Try using the built in trackpad as I described above

Thanks for the reply...
Not sure what you mean by it might be my problem, not saying you are wrong, just don't know what is meant.

After analyzing your reply it would seem that the problem might be an issue with the LrC implementation of mouse support on the sliders. The scroll on the mouse appears to work correctly in all other apps. When having the mouse hover over a slider the button changes color indicating that hover has been detected, then a click selects it . However, unlike the Windows version LrC, the scroll only affects the position of the panel. In the Windows version when hover/selected by click events are detected the slider button moves left or right depending on the direction of the scroll. In Ventura, at least, the mouse behaves like it does in the Cloudy version of Lightroom and scrolls the entire develop tools panel. I have tested this scenario using Windows native and via remote desktop access to Windows 11 running Lrc. Both work as expected. I believe this indicates that Apple Ventura is passing the mouse events to the underlying application where they must then handle them and respond appropriately.

This is probably your problem. Apple treats pointing devices differently from Microsoft. That means some Microsoft Controls might be missing from the Apple driver, simply because those functions do not exist in the OS API.
There are Pointer control settings listed in Preferences (At least there are for my Trackpad and Magic Mouse) . Scroll speed is found under Accessibility in Preferences. On my iMac, I use a separate Apple Trackpad with all of the control I need available for one, two or four fingers. Apple may not recognize a scroll wheel at all since these are never found on their products. The Magic Mouse has its own scroll gestures.

That said, none of my trackpad gestures will change the size of the brush unless the size control of the brush has the pointer focus. This is because the mouse works with the principle function of "hasFocus". This means when the pointer is in the image window, the Image 'hasFocus'. not the brush size control. Only when moving to the Brush control area of the window does the mouse have focus on the control slider. Try placing the pointer in the value field of your brush control. The pointer should change to L/R arrows. I can swipe Left or Swipe Right on my trackpad to decrease or increase the size of the brush.

Your MBP should have a keyboard and a trackpad built in. Try using the built in trackpad as I described above

 

[johnrellis]

The hand cramps I am getting trying to manipulate the sliders with a mouse

It's not clear from your post: Are you wanting to use the mouse wheel to adjust the size of the brush or to move any of the sliders in Develop?

In Mac LR, the mouse wheel can only be used to adjust the size of the brush -- unlike on Windows, it won't adjust any of the other Develop sliders:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/ligh...e-scroll-wheel-enabled-for-mac/idi-p/13468388

 

[clee01l]

What I was pointing out was that you mouse was designed by Microsoft FOR Windows not for MacOS. You should not expect all of its features to work as designed on a non Windows OS.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[hrboyce]

It's not clear from your post: Are you wanting to use the mouse wheel to adjust the size of the brush or to move any of the sliders in Develop?

In Mac LR, the mouse wheel can only be used to adjust the size of the brush -- unlike on Windows, it won't adjust any of the other Develop sliders:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/ligh...e-scroll-wheel-enabled-for-mac/idi-p/13468388

Thanks for the reply and the link, the answer to your question is I expected both should work, as that was my experience on Windows and neither work

What I was pointing out was that you mouse was designed by Microsoft FOR Windows not for MacOS. You should not expect all of its features to work as designed on a non Windows OS.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

@clee01l - That is a silly statement. The mouse wasn't designed by Microsoft for Windows, the original MAC had one, albeit with only one button. The current Apple product line includes one, that is touch sensitive for scroll, proving not every idea they have is a good one. Microsoft tried to copy that as well but abandoned it because it made little sense, I know because I bought and tried one. Which makes me wonder then what Adobe does with the Apple Magic Mouse and all its various incantations & gestures for scrolling, right clicking, zooming and what not. For Adobe to deprive MacOS users of an excellent scroll feature seems illogical when Mac Minis, Mac Studios, Mac Pros are most likely going to be outfitted with a mouse since the Apple keyboard does not include a trackpad. That and as more folks migrate from Windows to Apple Silicon and MacOS it should be important to Adobe to keep as many of the feature sets compatible as they can.
On the outside chance this capability is somehow surfaced using the mouse in combination with one of the Mac "special" keys (as so many other features are) then I would love to learn about it.

@johnrellis - thanks for the reply and the link, it seems a lot of folks share my problem. It also seems like an odd decision for Adobe to implement this feature in just some versions and remove or not include support for a mouse wheel in other versions of LrC. From an accessibility and ease of use point of view, this is something that Adobe could and should address. Hopefully in the future they will bring this behavior standard to both LrC versions and add it to the Cloudy version of LR as well. Especially when Apple is finally expanding native support for the use of a mouse across all its compute devices including the iPad. I am still holding out for a special key combo with the mouse to implement this functionality which makes using LrC so much better, but unless it is a bug, the chances seem slim. I marked your reply as the answer and up voted it, thanks again.

 

[johnrellis]

I'm not sure what might be going wrong with your mouse wheel and changing the size of the Healing and Masking brush -- I haven't seen any reports about that for Mac on the Adobe forums, and it's always worked with my cheap generic platform-independent mice.

 

[hrboyce]

I use the following device for several reasons.

1. Programmable keys.
2. Precision and speed of response
3. Works without cable and recharges when usb cable plugged in.
4. The extra scroll wheel is superb and programmable.
5. Designed to work for Mac or Win.

One negative is that the supplied usb key is usb type a. Not ideal if migrating all peripherals to usb c. Also, no where to store this little usb fob, so easily misplaced if not used.

https://www.logitech.com/en-eu/products/mice/mx-master-3s.910-006559.html

@Gnits - thanks for the reply...
Do you use LrC on MacOS with this mouse? If yes, does the scroll wheel move a slider in the develop module left and right the way it does in Windows. I would happily plunk down money on a new mouse if this were the case.

Here is the test... Using a Mac, load Lightroom Classic, open an image in the Develop module. Open the basic settings, hover and click on the exposure button and push the scroll wheel up and/or down. If the exposure value changes, WIN (pun intended). If the whole tools panel moves up and down - Oh well. If there is a way to program it to do that then it is still a win. Many users will be thankful for your discovery.

 

[johnrellis]

the chances seem slim

I would agree with that. Though the first post in that feature request thread is dated 2018, I recall feature requests about this from many years earlier (many feature requests and bug reports were lost when Adobe transitioned to a new forum platform a year ago).

 

[Gnits]

The Logi Mx Master 3 works as per your test on my Win machine. It may be several days before I will be able to test on my MacAir (on loan).

 

[hrboyce]

Well, part one done. My MS mouse works fine in LrC and Windows 10 and 11 as well. I will be anxiously awaiting your results on the Mac!
In the meantime I am going to see if any of these fancy AI chat bots can come up with answer... wouldn't that be something.

 

[Jim Wilde]

Well, part one done. My MS mouse works fine in LrC and Windows 10 and 11 as well. I will be anxiously awaiting your results on the Mac!
In the meantime I am going to see if any of these fancy AI chat bots can come up with answer... wouldn't that be something.

I use the same mouse as Gnits on both Win10 and MacOS (Ventura), and I can confirm that on Win10 the scroll wheel moves the slider if I click on the slider pin first (it doesn't if I click on the Slider name). But on Mac it does not do that, and IIRC it never did do that. However, it DOES increase/decrease the size of the Brush on Mac, as expected.

 

[Gnits]

I have just tested the Logi MX Master 3 on my MacAir.

I can confirm that my findings are the same as Jim Wilde.

I never use that feature, so never noticed the different behaviour.

I have purchased the LoupeDeck Live ..... but for a lot of reasons I have not had the opportunity to install and configure it on my Win or Mac. I do wonder how LoupeDeck are able to target the wheel to be able to dial in the various settings (eg Exposure).

If I figure that out and can configure my mouse to reflect that behaviour I will post back here.... but have no plans to do that anytime soon.

 

[clee01l]

For Adobe to deprive MacOS users of an excellent scroll feature seems illogical

The answer is that they don't. Both the touch pad and the MagicMouse have scroll controls without resorting to a 'Wheel" .
The Part of my original post that you seem to overlook is the information about the "hasFocus" Window Pointer Function. This is an integral part of the Windows API in both Microsoft and Mac implementations. So is the scroll function a part of that same API This more than anything is why you are unable to resize the brush unless the brush slider 'hasFocus'.

 

[David_W]

I have purchased the LoupeDeck Live ..... but for a lot of reasons I have not had the opportunity to install and configure it on my Win or Mac. I do wonder how LoupeDeck are able to target the wheel to be able to dial in the various settings (eg Exposure).

The Loupedeck software works by installing a plugin into Lightroom Classic.

 

[Gnits]

Thanks. Useful to know.

 

[hrboyce]

It's not clear from your post: Are you wanting to use the mouse wheel to adjust the size of the brush or to move any of the sliders in Develop?

In Mac LR, the mouse wheel can only be used to adjust the size of the brush -- unlike on Windows, it won't adjust any of the other Develop sliders:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/ligh...e-scroll-wheel-enabled-for-mac/idi-p/13468388

One last NOTE...
Because this missing functionality on the sliders when compared to the Windows version was so bothersome, I reached out to Victoria via email. In her reply she mentioned that for the scroll wheel to work to size the brush the cursor has to be over the photo, not the slider, which wasn't the way I was using it. So that mystery is solved. She also mentioned that in the Mac Version of LrC the mouse wheel does not update any of the other develop sliders like it does on the Windows version.
...BUT !!!!
She provided another input method I was unaware of, (if it is in the book I missed it). After the sliders have focus the up and down arrows can be used to make small increments in any of the sliders. This is an awesome substitution as I can keep my hand relaxed on the mouse and adjust with the other. NO MORE CRAMPS!!!
Thanks Victoria - this is working out so well I have given up on my efforts to get Karabiner Elements to replicate the wheel behavior!

@Gnits - I would love to hear about what you think of the Loupedeck. It looks like an interesting device but, not sure it's right for me. It seems like I am always multi-tasking when doing edits and it would be more in the way than useful.

 

[Gnits]

A few thoughts.
1. Maybe LoupeDeck is using the small adjustment feature (and maybe related keyboard short cuts) to apply analogue adjustments thru the LoupeDeck exposure (say wheel).
2. I have thought on multiple occasions what a nuisance it is to have got used to using a mouse with our right hands. If we used our left hands, our right hands would be free to perform lots of functions. One gripe is if I wish to take notes, I must take my hand off the mouse and grasp a pen and reverse the process to use the mouse when finished taking notes. Equally, I could be using my right hand to control up/down arrows, page up/down, enter numeric data etc.
3. When I get the chance, I will try and link the second scroll wheel on the MxMouse to make minor adjustments. If successful then a lot can be accomplished with the mouse and a single hand,
4. I feel the LoupeDeck is really designed for high volume users or people who are working a lot of their time as editors. Also, personally, I can see a problem with desk real estate , but maybe the trick might be to learn to use the Loupe Deck with my left hand.

I will provide feedback on the Loupe Deck in due course , but I am too busy for the next while to get started, as I sense I will have a learning curve and config phase to work thru.

Covid has interrupted both my travel and photography plans. This in turn has reduced considerably the volume of images I need to process. So little incentive to prioritise LoupeDeck. My hope that this year may see a return to a more normal scenario and I a get my photo projects back on track.

I will post here and send a private mail if I have anything further to add when I experiment further.

ps. I am strongly right handed. The reverse may be true if I was left handed.

 

[johnrellis]

Maybe LoupeDeck is using the small adjustment feature (and maybe related keyboard short cuts) to apply analogue adjustments thru the LoupeDeck exposure (say wheel).

Loupedeck and other MIDI controller software controls LR via plugins, which can directly manipulate all Develop settings.

 

[Gnits]

Loupedeck and other MIDI controller software controls LR via plugins, which can directly manipulate all Develop settings.

Good to know it works at such a granular level. Thanks (also to David-w).

 

[David_W]

I can see a problem with desk real estate , but maybe the trick might be to learn to use the Loupe Deck with my left hand.

I have a Loupedeck CT (which is pretty similar to your Live, only it has twelve more buttons and a large jog wheel with a touch screen). I use it left-handed - it sits to the left of my keyboard. That means I can keep my right hand on my trackball or to reach for my touchscreen to the right of my main monitor.

I will provide feedback on the Loupe Deck in due course , but I am too busy for the next while to get started, as I sense I will have a learning curve and config phase to work thru.

I think you'll find the Loupedeck software pretty much 'plug and play' - the default Lightroom Classic profile is fairly sensible. The best thing is to start with the default, and then customise it gradually over time to meet your needs as you figure out what does and doesn't work.

SideshowFX sells some alternative profiles for Loupedeck CT and Loupedeck Live. Their "Lightroom Classic Pro Pack for Loupedeck" is nice, but it's US$34.99 and the profile supplied with the Loupedeck software is pretty good.