Need help resolving possible color gamut/management issue

[Replytoken]

I am trying to resolve a very perplexing problem that may be a color space/gamut issue, a software color management problem, or possibly some combination of both. First, a bit of background to help isolate the possible sources of the problem. I am working on a W7-64 machine with two color-calibrated NEC monitors. One is a matte IPS panel, and the other is a glossy S-IPS panel. For purposes of this problem discussion, all of my analysis was done using the former monitor, although the issues could be demonstrated on either monitor. In short, I do not believe that the monitors are the problem.

The file demonstrating the problem was shot with my D300 in NEF format. It is a picture of a football player who is wearing a uniform that is purple in color. The issue is that I need to output jpeg files for two different printers, and so far, both of them have returned images where the uniform looked much more blue than purple. The file that went to the photo printer was processed in LR (in LR’s native color space) and exported as an sRGB jpeg file. That file was also used by Photoshop Elements 8 to create a layout with some text. I had PSE8 output two types of files after the text block was added. The first files was an sRGB jepg, and the second was a Photoshop PDF file.

Now, here is where things start to get confusing and appearing somewhat illogical. I have viewed the original NEF file, the exported JPEG file, PSE*8’s JPEG and PDF files with a variety of programs (Fast Stone, IE10, Chrome, Windows Image Viewer and Adobe Acrobat Reader and my iPad2), most of which are supposed to be color managed to one degree or another. Now, if all was as suspected, there would be some consistency as to which programs had trouble displaying the purple uniform purple rather than blue. But, there seemed to be little consistency, weather looking at the same images in all of the programs, or all of the files in one program. To help me better understand the problem, I created the matrix below, the results of which are still leaving me confused. I understand that the iPad would show everything blue (not color managed IIRC), and that the NEF file would render the uniform in all programs purple, but the other results do not seem to indicate any type of pattern.

	NEF File	Exported JPEG	JPEG from Elements	PS PDF (PS) from Elements
Viewed in:
iPad	n/a	blue	blue	blue
Lightroom 4.4	purple	purple	blue	n/a
Fast Stone Image Viewer	purple	blue	blue	n/a
Windows Live Gallery Viewer	purple	blue	blue	purple
Internet Explorer 10	n/a	blue	blue	purple
Chrome	n/a	purple	purple	blue
Acrobat Reader	n/a	n/a	n/a	purple

I am open to suggestions, but am also on a time schedule that requires this image be at the printers somewhat soon, and hopefully with a more purple uniform! Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

--Ken

 

[sizzlingbadger]

Could potentially be different rendering intents of the programs doing the jpg export ? Also profiles being included and tagged in-correctly or just tagged and no profile. The apps will have have different fall-back / defaults in different situations I expect. I'm just guess here though :whistling::whistling:

 

[Replytoken]

Could potentially be different rendering intents of the programs doing the jpg export ? Also profiles being included and tagged in-correctly or just tagged and no profile. The apps will have have different fall-back / defaults in different situations I expect. I'm just guess here though :whistling::whistling:

Good points, Nik. The problem is that I need to create files that print correctly at both printers, and I am not sure how to go about doing that. :hm:

--Ken

 

[Tony Jay]

How are you Ken, it has been a while since we directly corresponded.

My question with regard to your post is this:
Did you softproof with appropriate printer/paper profiles before sending the images off for printing?

I notice that in your profile your printer is listed as an offsite lab.
If you do not have access to the printer/paper profiles that they are using then the result cannot be predictable - simple as that.
Also it is unlikely that all the applications that you list are colour-managed - some are and some aren't.

With colour-management issues like this it is unlikely that either the full problem or the full solution has yet been heard.
So feel free to keep on clarifying and fine-tuning information - it will make it much easier to problem-solve.

Tony Jay

 

[Replytoken]

How are you Ken, it has been a while since we directly corresponded.

My question with regard to your post is this:
Did you softproof with appropriate printer/paper profiles before sending the images off for printing?

I notice that in your profile your printer is listed as an offsite lab.
If you do not have access to the printer/paper profiles that they are using then the result cannot be predictable - simple as that.
Also it is unlikely that all the applications that you list are colour-managed - some are and some aren't.

With colour-management issues like this it is unlikely that either the full problem or the full solution has yet been heard.
So feel free to keep on clarifying and fine-tuning information - it will make it much easier to problem-solve.

Tony Jay

Yes, it has been a while since we last corresponded directly, and I hope you are doing well these days. I am still recovering from my medical treatments this spring, but am mostly making progress. I am hoping to be able to return to work from medical leave next month if all goes well. In the mean time, I have some photos on exhibit this month at a local cafe, and that is how I came to this "purple" problem. I have not yet tried soft proofing because the difference in viewing was so great, and the output from the two printers seems to match the blue images, that I was not certain how much more information it would provide me (kind of a Garbage In, Garbage Out (GIGO) attitude I guess).

I agree that it is difficult to know the degree of color management implemented by many programs, but the results still seem a bit helter skelter to my analysis. Nothing seems consistent, and that is what makes it hard to diagnose. Iwill try to play around with things a bit more tonight or tomorrow, as time permits, and report what I find. Very frustrating!

--Ken

 

[Tony Jay]

Ken, softproofing is the only way of getting what you want output-wise.
It is possible for two printers to produce identical output - if they are using the same printheads and inks and print to the same paper, but otherwise they will not.
If the printers are dissimilar then anything is possible.
Reading your first post in more detail the very fact that the lab received the file as an 8-bit sRGB file tends to indicate a non colour-managed process.

With regard to the differences between the sRGB JPEG and the Photoshop PDF file anything is possible.

It is quite possible to colour-manage output to sRGB JPEG as output for web use as well.

If you want some help with the process of softproofing I would be more than happy to explain the process.
It is actually not complicated and once "caught", you will never look back.
The key thing with regard to printing though is that you need to have access to the appropriate paper/printer profiles to softproof.
Contact the printer and ask what printer and what paper they are using (or what paper you want them to use) and then download the appropriate profiles off the web.
Offhand I cannot recall the exact folder that they should end up in but it is not hard to find out.

If the printer people tell you that their process cannot be colour-managed in this way then you need to go to another printing company because otherwise you are relying on a third-party to decide whether the result is acceptable rather than be able to fully control the process yourself.

Tony Jay