Few questions on the new LR4 soft proofing function

[rjalex]

Would like to share a good simple explanation by Julieanne Kost: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/whats-new-in-lightroom-4/soft-proofing-images

Would like to ask a few beginer questions.

a) if I am working on a calibrated NON-widegamut display (my iMac 27" screen) there's no point in softproofing to sRGB since I am actually working in sRGB to begin with. Right or wrong ?

b) if my print lab tells me to send sRGB pics they are not understanding what I need right ? I am asking for their printer + paper stock ICC profiles and they keep telling me to send sRGB :-(

c) somewhat unrelated, can anyone suggest a good home use printer (A4 or max A3 format) which won't break my bank account ? eh eh eh

Thanks a bunch.
Bob

 

[Mark Sirota]

a. No. You're not working in sRGB, and in any case if your display is calibrated, you can still use soft proofing. (You can even use it with the gamut warnings on an uncalibrated display). Use the monitor gamut overlay to see where your monitor is unable to display final colors.

b. Maybe, maybe not, but it sounds likely because if they understood they might tell you it doesn't matter because maybe they convert to CMYK before printing anyway. Unless your print lab uses RGB throughout the process there's no way (in Lightroom) to properly soft-proof. If they do, they could give you their profile so you could proof with it, even if you send sRGB. And you can always proof against sRGB anyway.

c. I'm interested in the answer to that one too.

One more thing -- I think there are some bugs associated with the soft proof gamut warning overlays; I'm not sure how trustworthy they are yet. I think soft proofing in general is fine, it's just the out-of-gamut warnings.

 

[rjalex]

Thanks Mark.

a) what you're saying is that the monitor I work on is not an exact match of a sRGB colorspace right ? This would match with the gamut graph I get at the end of the monitor calibration which is superimposed to some reference (sRGB, AdobeRGB and Prophoto) gamuts showing where it does not "reach". So practically speaking can I use the profile as generated by my Spyder3 calibrator to show the out of gamut colours on my display ?

PS In Julieanne Kost video the out of gamut control looks like the best thing after Nutella (a local brand of delicious rubbish food eh eh eh). If you say it's worthless a lot of my enthusiam at soft proofing just melts away :-(

Take care
Bob

 

[Mark Sirota]

Right, your monitor is not a perfect match for sRGB. You're calibrated, so you're fine. There may be some areas that look slightly different than an sRGB print, but there's really nothing you can do about that. The monitor gamut overlay is there to indicate where this might happen, but it can't show you what will happen -- it can only approximate.

I'm sure the OOG warnings will be useful once they're fixed, but at the moment I don't quite trust them. My concern is that i can prove that something's not quite right, here's how:

- Find a photo with some colors that likely exceed sRGB (highly saturated yellows or greens, perhaps) -- you can use the OOG overlay for this (set destination as sRGB, enable destination gamut warning overlays).
- Export as a TIFF, 8-bit, sRGB. No resizing, no export sharpening. Import the TIFF back into Lightroom.
- View the TIFF with soft-proofing enabled and destination gamut warnings enabled for sRGB.

You will see that there are some colors that still exceed sRGB, which is impossible -- it's an sRGB file.

I have reported this bug, and the Adobe folks are investigating. I don't know whether the problem is that the destination gamut warnings are wrong, or the rendering of the file in soft-proofing is wrong, or the initial export is wrong, or what. Just that something doesn't quite add up.

 

[rjalex]

Me bows to your superior cunning and wisdom !

 

[Rose Weir]

Re:Right, your monitor is not a perfect match for sRGB. You're calibrated, so you're fine. There may be some areas that look slightly different than an sRGB print, but there's really nothing you can do about that. The monitor gamut overlay is there to indicate where this might happen, but it can't show you what will happen -- it can only approximate.-I'm sure the OOG warnings will be useful once they're fixed, but at the moment I don't quite trust them.

After reading your comments I reviewed a series of images of yellow daffodils. ONLY the prophoto RGB displays WITHOUT the overlay on my Xrite Colormunki calibrated 27 LG monitor. Previously I noted the same tif result if there was orange or yellow in the image. Red, red/orange, Yellow, yellow/orange never escapes the overlay in sRGB or the paper profile I carefully prepared with the color munki unit.
Meanwhile the image prints out very well with QImage whether using sRGB or the paper profile. If adjustments were done to the image to remove the overlay the resulting print is FLAT.
I was beginning to think there was something radicaly wrong with the monitor, the camera or the calibrator.....comforting to read that all the dollars spent on these toys just might not be at fault <grin>.
I got the color munki monitor/printer calibrator when Lr4 first arrived and I've been calibrating weekly trying a range of values and there was no change with the soft proofing.
Logic says to ignore the soft proofing feature for the time being <grin>

 

[rjalex]

Rose are you using Perceptual or Relative colorimetric ? You sound very knowledgeable so probably you know everything about it. Did you see the intro to soft proofing ? There's also a video on Lynda.com by Chris Orwig (subscription needed) which cleared a lot of misconceptions I had about Rendering Intent ! (Disclaimer: as much as I love Chris's videos I do not own any stakes in Lynda.com ).

Is you monitor an extended gamut display ?

Are you talking about the out of gamut "clipping overlay" of the DESTINATION gamut ?

TC Bob

 

[Rose Weir]

rjalex:
I watched the jkost video which indicated 'use desaturation' when correcting the 'out of gamut overlay'
Discussion on the Adobe Lightroom forum had 'Digital Dog' respond. His view was that 'desaturation' wasn't the answer. He produced two videos to illustrate his view of the soft proofing. I posted a reference to this in an earlier posting
Digital Dog has published a follow up video on the aspects of soft proof and sRGB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v4Z_6Y2Kbk

Actually he does mention in passing that there could be a weaknes in the soft proofing tool.

He is the knowledgable source when it comes to colour. I am just struggling along attempting to land on 'what is actually correct in this Lightroom 4 environment'. There was a constant request for soft proofing from users pre Lr4 and I find it of interest that there is very little comment regarding the preformance or accuracy now that the availbilty exists.

I have examined both Perceptual and Relative. Relative when there has been predominantly one colour through out the image. I find the look of the 'soft proof' for a print using a paper profile to have a cast (haze like) over it like looking through a glass with mist over the clear glass.
The tones I mentioned above are definitely always with an out of gamut overlay whether its perceptual or relative when checking sRGB
I included prophoto RGB in the list of proofing and it is the only type that does not display an overlay when there is red or strong yellow as in a tulip or daffodil or crocus.
While the beta version was active in March I did an edit with on a pile of pumpkins in CS5 (removing an item from the image) the saved tif back in Lightroom displayed out of gamut over the pumpkins. This was repeated with images that had red Christmas ribbons. Meanwhile both images printed using Qimage software containing the colours I expected. Attempting to 'correct' via the soft proofing produced a flat, unfavourable image. At that time I thought it was me and I bought the Xrite colormunki (all $600.00 of it)

Another post that I put here included a screenshot of the black clipping mask that displays (hover over the Black triangle and push ALT) YELLOW over all the areas of a crocus cluster and was labeled as 'clipped'....same area was listed as out of gamut. I've concluded that using a bit of desaturation with clarity and vibrance has an influence....lessens the clipping anyway.

Although there is little comment about soft proofing I'm inclined to agree with Mark S (posts above) that there is something a little out of whack and until I hear differently I'm ignoring the soft proof aspect since it has been a frustrating experience, ever increasing since the spring flower season has started.

Rose

 

[rjalex]

As a fellow gardener and photograph I do feel your pain Thanks for sharing your thoughts Rose. I am learning a lot by reading posts as yours and the resources you mention. The only thing I am not sure I understand is why you're speaking about the Prophoto gamut since if I am not mistaken it's only an emitted light gamut and not a reflective gamut used for printing. Being very wide (maybe wider than the gamut of the camera capabilities ??) I do understand why the MONITOR gamut (the one on the left of the istogram) will not show warning even on the more challenging hues, but if your problem is in printing the whole point should be changing the hues in the photo to avoid out of gamut warning in the PRINTER gamut warning of the soft proofing function. Did I get this right ?
Here is a little quick shot I took in my little garden a couple of days ago. The flower is an Ajuga Reptans and the critter is a Bombus Pascuorum Take care

 

[Mark Sirota]

You don't necessarily need to change anything to address destination OOG warnings -- the profile conversion and rendering intent will handle that automatically, and perhaps better than doing it yourself. (This is the point Andrew Rodney is trying to make in his second video.)

 

[Rose Weir]

I wasn't looking at the softproofing result for ONLY printing. Many images are intended for a web site so I look at them in sRGB. Curiousity was the underlying reason I included the Prophoto...Not that I'm actually going to use it.
I've given up attempting to get a good adjustment when the destination is the printer. I send a tif to a folder for Qimage to use, pick the settings I need and the print clatters out of the printer looking pretty much the same as what I see on the screen.
It is a wide gamut screen which you asked about and I had to think about that. Its labelled as a 27.5 but the diagonal measure would give the true condition. There is a 22 inch sitting beside it and on occassion images look slightly better on that monitor; they are both calibrated to the same target amount.
I looked at the follow up video again last night that Andrew Rodney (Digital Dog) posted regarding rendering and I'm just going to go with his opinion expressed by Mark Sirota here

Rose
Who knows what the images look like out there on someone else's monitor ?<grin>

 

[rjalex]

Who knows what the images look like out there on someone else's monitor ?<grin>

Who knows !

In the video you linked the guy says that internally LR uses a colourspace called Melissa RGB which if I understand correctly is similar to Prophoto. It also says (but not being a mothertongue I could have misundersttod) that when you use LR4 softproofing MONITOR overlay you are NOT comparing the colours in the image to the sRGB working space but rather to Melissa RGB and therefore since the latter is a wide gamut you'll often end up with minimal data out of that gamut.

The more I read the more I get confuzzled but the process is FUN ! ;-)

I am also on the same wavelength as the video and Mark's: not a lot of use for SP so far.

TC