Storage, backup and OneDrive

[jane.kerr]

Lightroom Version Number

Lightroom Classic 12.1

Operating System

1. Windows 10

My desktop machine has a 500GB hard disk which is mostly full of my Pictures folder (350GB and counting). My computer is grinding to a halt because it has so little spare space on the disk (it's been in the red for ages).
I've got a load of cloud storage along with my Microsoft Office subscription, so until recently, I've been putting my photos in the Pictures folder on my hard disk and allowing OneDrive to back them up to the cloud (although I read recently that OneDrive isn't really a backup - so if I accidentally delete a file on my computer, the mistake will also be synced to OneDrive).
I have just bought two mahoosive WD portable hard drives intending to use one of them as a working drive for my photos and the other as backup (to be kept somewhere different to where my computer is, in case of disastrous house fire etc.).
Obviously I'm paranoid about my photographs and I was wondering if it's still worth keeping them in the cloud as well as on the two hard drives, and if so, if it's possible to use OneDrive for this without also having the files cluttering up the computer's hard disk, ie. just have them uploaded to the cloud as well as to the external hard drive when I import them from my camera but without them staying in the Pictures folder on the hard drive on my computer.

 

[GregJ]

I love One Drive and use it for every file I have that is not an image file. My image files are separate and a lot (many TB) so I don't cloud them yet. Might someday. Like Gnits said, One Note is great and part of my daily life. I start a note and it syncs immediately to my phone, my wife's phone, my tablet, PC and both my laptops. So, I can make notes to myself about everything, and they are on all devices.
I travel a lot and have a note page for every trip that catalogues cost, location, where we ate, slept drove, etc - almost like a diary
But Like Gnits said, One Drive is confusing even for old folder and file freaks like me. Sometimes I get confused about which files are on my device and where on the device vs also in the One Drive Cloud.
I'll make this observation too. MS and Windows have for years tried to make it easy and transparent dealing with folders and files where file folders are and how they are organized. In doing so, they have made it far more confusing in my opinion.
They hide the organization tree and just show you a list of recent files and folders and you don't know where they are unless you dig. I like the old File Explorer that just showed you the folder tree and let you have control. There are ways to set it up like the old way, but it takes some digging in the settings. I find the way Windows behaves now with files and folders to be more confusing than the old days, but they want everything to be an icon you click on and just throw all the recently used files out there on the main screen of File Explorer.

 

[GregJ]

Maybe Victoria should set up a separate forum for "general computer problems and issues."


This is NOT a forum for computer aficionados. It's for photo enthusiasts, and for most "normal" people their computer is just a tool to accomplish their goals, same as with their phones or cars or televisions or internet service. "Normal" people also don't care about the compression ratios of their cars' engines, for example.

By the way, when I read the term "spinning rust" it is sometimes a bit derogatory or else apologetic,

I disagree completely Phil. You can stick your head in the sand if you want, but to have that attitude would hurt this forum badly and then it would fail to delve into where most of the real problem areas are.

LR is a very complex and powerful software program (getting more powerful every month it seems) that runs on computers. LR is a program used by 90% of the great photographers of the world. It is used by every professional photographer I know. It dominates the photography forums. It is a computer program that runs on computers.

Photographers are inundated with computer tech because it is the main part of their workflow and presents difficulties along the way. You have to be a little computer literate to be a photographer. The LR problems mix in with the computer problems like beans and rice. Computer-related LR problems that confront LR users are an endless list of topics: storage (HDD, SSD, internal, external), connectivity (USB, DP, TB), backup routines, OS, monitors, RAM, GPU, CPU, moving files, folder and file naming strategies, cloud usage, raw file size, and an endless list of other computer and other software-related stuff that gets asked on this form constantly.

The photo forums are dominated by talk about PCs, laptops and new computer-related camera tech. Our PC and laptop work dominate the discussions on all the camera and photographer forums.

At least 80 percent of the difficult questions on this forum are heavily desktop and lapto- related in their complexity. The simple questions are the LR setting stuff and tips on better LR usage. The hard stuff is when you combine it with photography workflow and computer usage.

 

[Gnits]

One Drive / One Note / My Pics / My Docs.

Folders such as MyDocs or MyPics(ignore the exact spelling) are example of a folder concept in Windows called Windows Libraries. See this link. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/client-management/windows-libraries

The concept is good for lots of scenarios, especially for enterprise style networks, where the network admin can manage such folders / libraries so they conform to a corporate storage or document management strategy. They can also be used very well by the individual user. However, what I do not like about these library folders is that not all the rules regarding their behaviour are obvious. Also, the rules have a habit of changing over time. An example of an invisible rule is putting MyPics automatically onto OneDrive. Also, lots of third party developers use these libraries as undocumented locations for their app data.

My personal policy, regarding these folders, is that I avoid using them completely. In a new laptop scenario, I will create a master folder on a non system drive ( called something like MoB-AllData. Inside of this I create files such as MoB-Docs, MoB-CADfiles, MoB-PicsTravel, etc. All output from any of the apps I use (Ms Office, Adobe, Cad software, etc) gets stored in these Non Windows Library Folders. I configure Explorer to remove all Windows Library Folders from the shortcuts and add shortcuts for my own folders and adjust the settings in say Word, to save my word docs into my docs folder ( specifically avoiding the Windows default library documents folder. My initials are MoB, so I recognise files or folders which start with MoB immediately.

The main reason I do this is that I always know where my data resides and it does not get mixed up with rules created by Microsoft or third party developers.

I am not trying to convert people to my methodology. I am just making the point that Windows Library folders may have behaviour and characteristics which may not be obvious, especially when these get mixed up with cloud services, such as One Drive, ICloud Dropbox, etc..

 

[GregJ]

That is a good methodology, and I am very familiar with that of which you speak. We all have different needs. Our needs change as our professional lives evolve and then later as we go into retirement. As photographers, the more we shoot, our needs amplify over time concerning our image storage and file systems, size and location.

For example, I was in the professional work force for 40 years and went from no computers existing to in a matter of 20 years using very complex systems, data bases, spreadsheets, briefings, graphics - you name it (not coding though).

Then I retired and my data needs got very simple in terms of documents I work with - just One Notes, Word, Excel and Outlook documents and just basic stuff. However, conversely, in retirement I started shooting a lot and spending a fortune on camera gear, so my needs for image files amplified greatly, especially with GFX files at 100 to 200 MBs each and tens of thousands of them.

So, we make our own choices, but to make those choices you have to study and learn various options. Photographers learn from each other's workflow and techniques. We learn from each other on computer usage. We learn from each other in LR usage. That all mixes together in the quest to become a better photographer., which is what LR is all about. (Well, LR exists to make money for Adobe, but for us it is all about photography.)

 

[BobT]

My desktop machine has a 500GB hard disk which is mostly full of my Pictures folder (350GB and counting). My computer is grinding to a halt because it has so little spare space on the disk (it's been in the red for ages).
I've got a load of cloud storage along with my Microsoft Office subscription, so until recently, I've been putting my photos in the Pictures folder on my hard disk and allowing OneDrive to back them up to the cloud (although I read recently that OneDrive isn't really a backup - so if I accidentally delete a file on my computer, the mistake will also be synced to OneDrive).
I have just bought two mahoosive WD portable hard drives intending to use one of them as a working drive for my photos and the other as backup (to be kept somewhere different to where my computer is, in case of disastrous house fire etc.).
Obviously I'm paranoid about my photographs and I was wondering if it's still worth keeping them in the cloud as well as on the two hard drives, and if so, if it's possible to use OneDrive for this without also having the files cluttering up the computer's hard disk, ie. just have them uploaded to the cloud as well as to the external hard drive when I import them from my camera but without them staying in the Pictures folder on the hard drive on my computer.

I was in the same situation. You are dead right. OneDrive should not be viewed as just another dive to store stuff, particularly backups. It operates as an "interactive" cloud storge giving the security and capacity of the cloud while saving local storage. If you have your image files on C:, OneDrive will mirror this in the cloud and constantly upload changes and download new images. This is not what you want for a backup. Also, the constant up and downing can causes issues with LrC. For this reason, I have LrC on C: but the image files and the catalogue on D:. D: does not interact with OneDrive.
Regarding backups, all is not lost. The backup software I use, has a means on interacting with OneDrive to allow a backup to be stored on OneDrive without any of this complicated interaction back to anything on local drives. I don't know which other packages also do this but mine is SyncBackPro.

 

[GregJ]

I was in the same situation. You are dead right. OneDrive should not be viewed as just another dive to store stuff, particularly backups. It operates as an "interactive" cloud storge giving the security and capacity of the cloud while saving local storage. If you have your image files on C:, OneDrive will mirror this in the cloud and constantly upload changes and download new images. This is not what you want for a backup. Also, the constant up and downing can causes issues with LrC. For this reason, I have LrC on C: but the image files and the catalogue on D:. D: does not interact with OneDrive.
Regarding backups, all is not lost. The backup software I use, has a means on interacting with OneDrive to allow a backup to be stored on OneDrive without any of this complicated interaction back to anything on local drives. I don't know which other packages also do this but mine is SyncBackPro.

Yes, I use it because I have instant access to all my (non-image) files on my phone, laptops, PC and tablet.

 

[prbimages]

My OneDrive has gone wonky now. Before I got my external drive, my Pictures folder was in OneDrive and was synching. When I got the external drive, I kept getting an error message when I tried to copy Pictures to the external drive, saying there wasn't enough space on Windows.

Hi Jane, sorry for the delay in replying. I hope you have sorted out your OneDrive "wonkiness" now? I am certainly no expert on OneDrive, but my understanding is that it does not work with external drives. So your attempt to transfer your Pictures folder to an external drive may have screwed up OneDrive. To get everything working as you want, I think your photo files need to be outside of OneDrive. So you need to either remove the Pictures folder from OneDrive before moving it to the external drive, or create a different directory on the external drive for your images (and again, don't try to put that new directory under the control of OneDrive).

When I try choosing the "View online" option, I get an error message saying the URL isn't correct.

If you cannot connect via the "View online" button in OneDrive, try going to https://onedrive.live.com directly in a web browser. Login there with your Microsoft credentials if you are not already logged in. Then you should be able to see exactly what files OneDrive has stored.

 

[jane.kerr]

Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, I still can't access my OneDrive. The login page just times out, even though my internet is connected. I had a problem previously with Office 365 saying I wasn't online when I was.
This sort of thing is what puts me of cloud storage in general - what's the point of your files being safe in the cloud if you can't access then anyway?

 

[Replytoken]

Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, I still can't access my OneDrive. The login page just times out, even though my internet is connected. I had a problem previously with Office 365 saying I wasn't online when I was.
This sort of thing is what puts me of cloud storage in general - what's the point of your files being safe in the cloud if you can't access then anyway?

I believe that Microsoft was having access issues with Microsoft 365 last night. If you tried then, it may have been their issue, not yours. Still, your point about cloud-based storage is well taken.

--Ken

 

[BobT]

Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, I still can't access my OneDrive. The login page just times out, even though my internet is connected. I had a problem previously with Office 365 saying I wasn't online when I was.
This sort of thing is what puts me of cloud storage in general - what's the point of your files being safe in the cloud if you can't access then anyway?

Cloud storage is good but it's just another storage option. You need to know what you are getting. You put your IP into the hands of a private company with the promise of security for a fee. Tech companies go bankrupt every day. Promises go poof. Your IP falls into the hands of the receiver for them to do with as they think best for creditors. It's a calculated risk but many think it worth taking. Banks are highly regulated but cloud storage companies, not so much.

 

[Hal P Anderson]

Your IP falls into the hands of the receiver for them to do with as they think best for creditors.

There are cloud services that use end-to-end encryption, so even the folks at the other end can't see your data. There are also those who don't, so it makes sense to investigate that aspect before committing to a given service.

Edit: here's a review of popular cloud backup services:
https://arstechnica.com/information...m-top-cloud-backup-services-worth-your-money/

 

[Linwood Ferguson]

Cloud storage is good but it's just another storage option.

I think one place people go wrong is thinking differently of one disk drive at home, and one cloud storage.

"Just another storage option" is a good term. Despite all their protests to the contrary, any of the cloud storage companies (including Adobe) could lose your data. But any of my disk drives at home could lose my data as well. That's why I keep it multiple places, independent of each other.

If one is going to put all their images in ONLY the cloud -- put it all in ONE cloud is the same in concept as all on one disk.

(Note my comment is aimed more at reliability not privacy, which is a whole different issue, that gets worse with multiple providers).

 

[prbimages]

Unfortunately, I still can't access my OneDrive. The login page just times out, even though my internet is connected.

Hmmm, I hate to suggest it, but a call to Microsoft support might be required to get this resolved.

 

[Replytoken]

Thanks for reply. Unfortunately, I still can't access my OneDrive. The login page just times out, even though my internet is connected. I had a problem previously with Office 365 saying I wasn't online when I was.
This sort of thing is what puts me of cloud storage in general - what's the point of your files being safe in the cloud if you can't access then anyway?

Were you trying to access OneDrive from your desktop or from the web? If the former is giving you issues, do try the latter via www.office.com . If that also does not work, then you probably should try to contact Microsoft.

--Ken

 

[jane.kerr]

Were you trying to access OneDrive from your desktop or from the web? If the former is giving you issues, do try the latter via www.office.com . If that also does not work, then you probably should try to contact Microsoft.

--Ken

I have been trying to access it from my desktop. I get a popup window that says "Please finish signing in with your account", but it just sits there spinning forever. I was able to logon from my phone, and my pictures (which used to sync from my desktop machine) are still there. I tried to login from www.office.com but got a page saying:

Hmmm… can't reach this page​

Check if there is a typo in login.microsoftonline.com.

(obvs there isn't). I can connect to other sites so doesn't seem to be an issue with my internet connection. It's all pretty frustrating.

 

[Linwood Ferguson]

When you tried your phone were you using the OneDrive app, or using a web browser? And were you on cellular data or wifi?

I ask because you say it's not the internet, but ... maybe it is. Or maybe it is your ability to get there, some issue with the ISP, firewall, router, etc.

Try this: On your phone open a browser, not the one drive app. Disconnect from wifi and use cellular data so you have a completely independent connection from your desktop. Now try the web page on the desktop and on the phone at about the same time, and see if both give the same error. If not, it's time to dig deeper (I'm going to assume the phone works). Put the phone back on wifi and try again, it it now fails, it's your router or ISP. If it works, it's your computer. Try turning off any firewall, anti-virus or malware prevention programs (briefly only for this test) and try again. If all else fails suspect the ISP.

The bottom line is if you have some working access to OneDrive, then it's likely not your account, you need to dig to see what's different about that access and your desktop.

 

[Replytoken]

When you tried your phone were you using the OneDrive app, or using a web browser? And were you on cellular data or wifi?

I ask because you say it's not the internet, but ... maybe it is. Or maybe it is your ability to get there, some issue with the ISP, firewall, router, etc.

Try this: On your phone open a browser, not the one drive app. Disconnect from wifi and use cellular data so you have a completely independent connection from your desktop. Now try the web page on the desktop and on the phone at about the same time, and see if both give the same error. If not, it's time to dig deeper (I'm going to assume the phone works). Put the phone back on wifi and try again, it it now fails, it's your router or ISP. If it works, it's your computer. Try turning off any firewall, anti-virus or malware prevention programs (briefly only for this test) and try again. If all else fails suspect the ISP.

The bottom line is if you have some working access to OneDrive, then it's likely not your account, you need to dig to see what's different about that access and your desktop.

Good advice. I am currently logged into my work account through the web and both the links in Jane's post above were copied and take me to my pages at work. I think that Linwood is on to something, and I might suggest Jane clearing out your cache and cookies on her browser if that is not too much trouble. Sometimes an old piece of data can prevent a connection. Or, try a private/incognito browser window or a different browser. Lastly, @jane.kerr , are you located in our outside of the US? Sometimes companies like MS use different URL's for access in different countries.

--Ken

 

[prbimages]

try going to https://onedrive.live.com directly in a web browser

Have you tried this address that I mentioned earlier? If that is failing, try Ken's advice of using a different browser and/or a private/incognito browser window.

Also, where is your PIctures folder now? Your OneDrive problems apparently started when you:

tried to copy Pictures to the external drive

Did the Pictures directory get moved to the external drive, or not? If it moved to the external drive, have you tried moving it back to its original location?

 

[valkamch]

I save photos on an external NAS with RAID 1, in addition, I copy photos from Lightroom to OneDrive using a plugin. Even if I delete photos from local drives, they will remain in OneDrive.

 

[jane.kerr]

When you tried your phone were you using the OneDrive app, or using a web browser? And were you on cellular data or wifi?

I ask because you say it's not the internet, but ... maybe it is. Or maybe it is your ability to get there, some issue with the ISP, firewall, router, etc.

Try this: On your phone open a browser, not the one drive app. Disconnect from wifi and use cellular data so you have a completely independent connection from your desktop. Now try the web page on the desktop and on the phone at about the same time, and see if both give the same error. If not, it's time to dig deeper (I'm going to assume the phone works). Put the phone back on wifi and try again, it it now fails, it's your router or ISP. If it works, it's your computer. Try turning off any firewall, anti-virus or malware prevention programs (briefly only for this test) and try again. If all else fails suspect the ISP.

The bottom line is if you have some working access to OneDrive, then it's likely not your account, you need to dig to see what's different about that access and your desktop.

Oooh, I like this, Mr Sherlock Holmes!
I open the office.com site using Chrome on my phone set on mobile data and was able to logon and could see all my files in OneDrive. I tried the same thing on my desktop and got the "Hmmm ... can't reach this page" error message. I logged out of the office site on my phone, turned on the wifi and tried it again - and it still worked on the wifi.
It does look like a DNS failure on the computer, yet I am still able to access other webpages. Or possibly something wrong in the account settings: on my computer it asks me for an email address to sign in but on my phone it uses my mobile number.

 

[jane.kerr]

Good advice. I am currently logged into my work account through the web and both the links in Jane's post above were copied and take me to my pages at work. I think that Linwood is on to something, and I might suggest Jane clearing out your cache and cookies on her browser if that is not too much trouble. Sometimes an old piece of data can prevent a connection. Or, try a private/incognito browser window or a different browser. Lastly, @jane.kerr , are you located in our outside of the US? Sometimes companies like MS use different URL's for access in different countries.

--Ken

Hi Ken, thanks for the reply. I'm in the UK.

 

[jane.kerr]

Have you tried this address that I mentioned earlier? If that is failing, try Ken's advice of using a different browser and/or a private/incognito browser window.

Also, where is your PIctures folder now? Your OneDrive problems apparently started when you:

Did the Pictures directory get moved to the external drive, or not? If it moved to the external drive, have you tried moving it back to its original location?

I get the "Hmm can't reach this page" error when I try to go to onedrive.live.com in a web browser (two different web browsers, in fact) on my computer.
When I tried to copy my Pictures folder originally, I got an error message saying their was insufficient space on my C: drive to copy it (which obvs made no sense at all, since I wasn't trying to copy it to the C: drive). After some googling, I found a solution to this problem (in a thread on MS forums), which was to go to the OneDrive settings > settings tab > uncheck "on demand files". Once I'd done that, I was able to copy my Pictures folder to my external drive.
If I go to OneDrive - Personal on my computer, there is a Pictures folder, which contains a subfolder called "Saved Pictures", both of which are empty. They were created (automatically) the day I moved my files to the external drive.
When I click on the OneDrive icon in the system tray (which is a cloud with a line through it - says "Not signed in" if I hover the mouse over it) I get a popup saying "OneDrive isn't connected. Sign in to OneDrive to get started".

 

[Replytoken]

Can you flush your browser's cache and cookies and see what happens? I know this will lose a lot of sign-in information, but it may resolve your sign-in problem with OneDrive. First try the cache if you do not want to clear out everything at once.

--Ken

 

[terrylampartkilian]

The OP 's PC has a 500GB hard drive and she just bought two WD portable hard drives. The question is merely about using OneDrive as an additional backup. My answer to that would be what she already knows: OneDrive is *not* a backup solution. Use something like Backblaze or iDrive if you want a cloud backup.

You are right Onedrive will not help in this case, so Backblaze, Azure blob, and AWS S3 would be great cloud solutions, and also using backup/sync tools like Goodsync, Syncback, or Gs Richcopy 360 to do the backup process would be more reliable and effective

 

[BobT]

You are right Onedrive will not help in this case, so Backblaze, Azure blob, and AWS S3 would be great cloud solutions, and also using backup/sync tools like Goodsync, Syncback, or Gs Richcopy 360 to do the backup process would be more reliable and effective

Yes, OneDrive is not a backup system. However, somehow Syncback Pro, which you mention, manages to configure part of OneDrive to act as their backup storage. It's quite distinct from the normal operation of OneDrive. I've been using it a long time quite successfully. This is good since I'm paying for OneDrive anyway.