Where is the editing parameters stored in an jpeg file

palengh

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#1
We are using Fotoware (Digital Asset Management - DAM⎟FotoWare) as DAM solution at work.
I would love to use LR to manage metadata over the proprietary client for several reasons.
When editing photos in LR how/where is the edit saved to the file? I recognize soft crop come visible from inside Fotoware web client, but unfortunately it does not seem to hand over the editing information as expected.

For proprietary files like RAW I assume this to be saved in the sidecar file if enabled. So is the edit parameters saved to the XMP header in jpeg’s?

Is this following a well documented standard eg. for XMPs?

Regards

Pål Engh
Fredrikstad, NORWAY
 
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JohanElzenga

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#2
Lightroom stores its edits in the catalog, regardless of the file type. You can save the edits to XMP as well (in case of jpeg indeed in the header), but other (non-Adobe) apps won't be able to read those, except perhaps a few basic things. The only thing they can read is standard metadata like keywords.
 

LouieSherwin

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Pål,

Sounds to me as though you are trying to have access to your edited images in an external image management program. It seems to make sense that if you have the original and the develop parameters (from XMP for example) that an external application could recreate the edits. However, this is not possible. Only Lightroom and Camera Raw can apply the edits.

The way to make your edits visible to external software is to use the export or publish functions in Lightroom and tell your external image manager to use these exported images. You can use the builtin Hard Drive export or better yet get the Collection Publisher from Jeffery Friedl.

I hope that this helps.

-louie
 
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Pål, by experiment, I know that the metadata assigned in LR is saved to the image until you export it. It will likely be held in the catalog or XMP if you setup metadata to be saved there.

However, while you talk about managing metdata in the LR workflow, you don't talk about your overall DAM workflow. It could be that the metadata managed by the DAM is different than what is managed by LR. Care is needed especially if any of this relates to monetization of the image to the original author.
 
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Pål, with my limited experience in the DAM area, it sounds like you are dealing with LR as a workflow inside of the overall DAM workflow. It is likely you are dealing with multiple metadata schemas, most of which will be managed by the DAM.

It sounds like you are likely just 'adding' the images from the DAM folder in order to perform post processing on the image. The metadata from the DAM will be preserved in the image by LR.

I'm assuming that your goal is to take the RAW image and create a finished image in another format like TIFF for downstream management by the DAM. Metadata added/modified in LR will be saved to the finished image when you do the export it along with any unmodified original metadata in the RAW.

Hope this helps.
 

palengh

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#6
Pål, with my limited experience in the DAM area, it sounds like you are dealing with LR as a workflow inside of the overall DAM workflow. It is likely you are dealing with multiple metadata schemas, most of which will be managed by the DAM.

It sounds like you are likely just 'adding' the images from the DAM folder in order to perform post processing on the image. The metadata from the DAM will be preserved in the image by LR.

I'm assuming that your goal is to take the RAW image and create a finished image in another format like TIFF for downstream management by the DAM. Metadata added/modified in LR will be saved to the finished image when you do the export it along with any unmodified original metadata in the RAW.

Hope this helps.
When testing I manage to do soft crops and show them in the DAM as visualized in the photo in my first post.
This is what I'm looking for:
  • Add images directly to the storage folder of the DAM - this preserves metadata already in the file
  • Add images to the DAM by using its import functions
  • Editing metadata in DAM
  • Edit metadata in LR
  • Apply soft crop and other parameters in LR
  • Export from the DAM *with* all adjustments
The DAM do comply with the Adobe XMP standard.
 
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#7
You didn't have a step for adding the image to LR which I believe you will need. It also looks like your DAM stores the metadata independent of the images but is capable of sharing.

LR manages metadata relative to the images in it's catalog. As far as I know, it's XMP files are not designed to be shared with other applications. To do what you are suggesting sounds like you'd need to export the image from FotoWare to get the metadata into the image, import into LR, make metadata changes, then export in and reimport it to FotoWare. LR is not a generic metadata management. If you wanted FotoWare to store LR XMP content, it looks like you have to setup a new schema in Fotoware but again, LR XMP is not designed to be share and I'm not sure if it's documented.

To be honest, I think you need to ask your question on the FotoWare blog.
 

Hoggy

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#8
I'm having trouble following what you're trying to accomplish. That's further complicated by the fact that editing in Lightroom is actually textual instructions stored as metadata... ALWAYS in the catalog, and depending on your xmp options, externally as well.

It sounds like you're wanting to view the finished image in Fotoware, which sounds like it apparently understands the crop data stored in the metadata, but nothing else. That's only really possible if you export the images as jpg/tiff.

There is actually another option, though. (Albeit some may want to bash me in the head for being such a DNG fanboy. :sorry: ) And that is converting all your images into DNG. Your raws will still stay raw as long as you don't choose the 'lossy dng' option when converting. When you want Fotoware to show the images with all your editing instructions from LR... In LR, you select the images you want to be shown as-is in Fototware, and then in LR choose the Library menu item "Metadata -> Update DNG preview and metadata". That will store a full-size jpg (if you choose full-size in preferences while converting during import, or the 'convert' dialog if doing it after importing) within the DNG. So the resulting DNG will store all your metadata & editing instructions (including any snapshots), AND a [full-size] jpg 'preview', AND the original raw data.
You could then share the EXACT same images between the two - without having to create extraneous jpg/tiff's. In other words, both programs could point to the exact same DNG files.

Of course this latter DNG option requires that Fotoware will both undertand DNG's, as well as read the previews from within them. (Many times, there could be a preference item for either showing the jpg preview, or doing a full raw-decode - usually defaulting to 'preview'.)
 

palengh

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#9
You didn't have a step for adding the image to LR which I believe you will need. It also looks like your DAM stores the metadata independent of the images but is capable of sharing.
LR manages metadata relative to the images in it's catalog. As far as I know, it's XMP files are not designed to be shared with other applications.
... If you wanted FotoWare to store LR XMP content, it looks like you have to setup a new schema in Fotoware but again, LR XMP is not designed to be share and I'm not sure if it's documented.
To be honest, I think you need to ask your question on the FotoWare blog.
There is, of course, a step to update the LR catalog and add updates from the image files to it.
XMP is Adobe’s standard metadata container designed to exchange metadata between applications supporting the XMP standard. Fotoware do that. Thus it also has an Adobe scheme embedded.
XMP is an industri standard for metadata, build on an other industri standard: XML.
You can save embedded XMP’s to a file from a jpeg using Adobe Bridge.
Sure I can ask over at Fotoware. But to be honest, those guys don’t seem to want us do this. They want us to use their own client, FotoStation.
 
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XMP is Adobe’s standard metadata container designed to exchange metadata between applications supporting the XMP standard. Fotoware do that. Thus it also has an Adobe scheme embedded.
XMP is an industri standard for metadata, build on an other industri standard: XML.
They are standrads for storing information.... but that doesn't mean that Fotoware can understand the information or make use of it.

Lightroom edits are done using a proprietary development engine. Details of those edits are stored in the catalog and in the XMP files but those details can only be understood by Lightroom or ACR. While Fotoware may be able to read XMP file it doesn't have Adobe's proprietary development engine with which to understand/recreate them.
 
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