understanding metadata AND working with Elements and LR

[Newmarket2]

My wife is using Elements 8 and I'm using LR 2.6 (and can't wait for 3!).
Some of my work is in partnership with her.
I will hold the official "copy" of an image in LR, but it would be great if she could do some things in Elements that I wouldn't have to redo in LR.
Unfortunately, I don't know much about metadata. I mean I do know what it is but, for example, I don't understand what the SYNCHRONIZE METADATA command does.
Well, that's just telling you what level I'm at.
What I'm wondering is, can my wife, using Elements update metadata, synch it with the original image and then I could synchronize it into LR????

I appreciate any advice you might want to give regarding Elements, Marriage, workflow (that's serious), but I'M REALLY looking for an answer to my question.
Thanks!

 

[dj_paige]

The only really smart way to use Elements and Lightroom together is to use Elements as an additional editor, and Lightroom for all your photo management/metadata/keywording etc.

You could use Elements and Lightroom in a much less efficient way, and eventually get this thing to work, but I really don't advise that. You don't say if you are using RAW originals, or not, but there are bugs in the ELements handling of metadata with some types of RAW photos which would interfere; and even if your originals don't have this problem, its still a lot of work.

Suggestion ... if the only use of Elements is to add/change metadata, go to some freeware tool like Geosetter or ExifToolGUI (which would have fewer bugs than Elements), and update the metadata using those tools.

 

[Newmarket2]

[quote author=dj_paige link=topic=9698.msg65598#msg65598 date=1272473818]
The only really smart way to use Elements and Lightroom together is to use Elements as an additional editor, and Lightroom for all your photo management/metadata/keywording etc.

You could use Elements and Lightroom in a much less inefficient way, and eventually get this thing to work, but I really don't advise that. You don't say if you are using RAW originals, or not, but there are bugs in the ELements handling of metadata with some types of RAW photos which would interfere; and even if your originals don't have this problem, its still a lot of work.

Suggestion ... if the only use of Elements is to add/change metadata, go to some freeware tool like Geosetter or ExifToolGUI (which would have fewer bugs than Elements), and update the metadata using those tools.
[/quote]

Thanks, Paige,

Yes, we were going to use Elements as an additional editor AND as a repository of "final" exported, jpg output.

I'm still stuck on a basic question: are all the metadata fields universal? i.e., are the MD fields in Elements the same as those in LR?

As for RAW, it's a mix. My wife uses a point/shoot, but we still want to hold the original with me and have the only "final" produced via export from LR. Most of our images, however, are NEF shot by me on a D3'' and a D7's.

I'll be a bit more specific: she would be applying keywords and entering captions and labels, etc. Will this work?

She might also "suggest" crops, but I would only use that as a guide for doing the same crop in LR.

 

[dj_paige]

Metadata are not "universal", whatever that means.

In Elements, the metadata is placed into the Elements Catalog.

In Lightroom, the metadata is placed into the Lightroom Catalog.

It is possible to get them to exchange metadata (although, as I mentioned, Elements has serious bugs in this area), but it takes a certain amount of human work.

The metadata fields in Elements overlap, but are not identical to, Lightroom. Some metadata fields in Elements do not exist in Lightroom, and vice versa. Keywords, captions are identical in both, and can be transferred (except for those darn bugs in Elements that I keep mentioning). You mentioned "labels", could you be more specific as to what field that is?

I think it is a sub-optimal decision to do some photo management and editing in Lightroom and then make Elements "a repository of ‘final’ exported, jpg output". Make Lightroom your repository of all of your photos; you will encounter much fewer problems that way and spend less time on it as well. Or, do as I do ... I don't keep exported JPGs; instead I create them from LR as needed, make use of them, and then delete them. Hence, no need for a repository of exported JPG files.

 

[Newmarket2]

[quote author=dj_paige link=topic=9698.msg656''#msg656'' date=1272476797]
Metadata are not "universal", whatever that means.

In Elements, the metadata is placed into the Elements Catalog.

In Lightroom, the metadata is placed into the Lightroom Catalog.

It is possible to get them to exchange metadata (although, as I mentioned, Elements has serious bugs in this area), but it takes a certain amount of human work.

The metadata fields in Elements overlap, but are not identical to, Lightroom. Some metadata fields in Elements do not exist in Lightroom, and vice versa. Keywords, captions are identical in both, and can be transferred (except for those darn bugs in Elements that I keep mentioning). You mentioned "labels", could you be more specific as to what field that is?

I think it is a sub-optimal decision to do some photo management and editing in Lightroom and then make Elements "a repository of ‘final’ exported, jpg output". Make Lightroom your repository of all of your photos; you will encounter much fewer problems that way and spend less time on it as well. Or, do as I do ... I don't keep exported JPGs; instead I create them from LR as needed, make use of them, and then delete them. Hence, no need for a repository of exported JPG files.
[/quote]
You answered my question about "universal" - that there is some overlap of metadata between Elements and LR. I'm OK if I stick with only the fields that they both recognize

I was going to ask specifically about keywords, but you answered that for me.

Sorry, I thought I recalled a LR field called "label". I was just picking it as an example.

Can you say more about the bugs? Or, point me to a board where they are discussed?

As for your "sub-optimal" comment, I'll be more specific about the situation....perhaps you can suggest a better alternative than the one I"m envisioning:
* She's a non-techie. She can use the basics of most apps, but can only handle so much learning at a time.
* Yes, we plan on a single repository - the RAW and JPG images and LR catalog on my PC.
* She will use the images to create newsletters, product brochures, mockups of web pages, etc.
* It is my understanding that two copies of LR can't read a catalog at the same time, so we can't operate in a true multi-user environment where we're both using LR at the same time.
* Until she's become more expert at using Elements, I don't want her using LR or working with the "official" catalog or images - there's too much of a chance she'll do some major damage.
* For her work, she needs a complete set of all images - ideally in the most current, post-processed form.

I can imagine some other potential solutions, but I really look forward to any recommendation you might make.

 

[dj_paige]

[quote author=Newmarket2 link=topic=9698.msg6566'#msg6566' date=127255'479]
You answered my question about "universal" - that there is some overlap of metadata between Elements and LR. I'm OK if I stick with only the fields that they both recognize[/quote]

No, you are not OK.

Let me be blunt.

Elements has too many bugs in its handling of metadata. This will not work. If you go down this path, you are dooming yourself to have hours of frustration, and incomplete or wrong results.

I cannot point you to a specific place to read about the bugs. If you'd like, you can search for my posts at ElementsVillage.com on this issue. I was one of the people who discovered and then dug in deeply to this issue, so I feel I understand it as well as anyone. Elements handles metadata properly within its catalog. However, when the time comes to write the metadata to the individual files, as I said earlier, it fails to write to Nikon NEF photos (and probably other RAWs as well) at all. This of course, is why I say your project will not work if you use Elements. There are other bugs as well.

[quote author=Newmarket2 link=topic=9698.msg6566'#msg6566' date=127255'479]As for your "sub-optimal" comment, I'll be more specific about the situation....perhaps you can suggest a better alternative than the one I"m envisioning:
* She's a non-techie. She can use the basics of most apps, but can only handle so much learning at a time.
* Yes, we plan on a single repository - the RAW and JPG images and LR catalog on my PC.
* She will use the images to create newsletters, product brochures, mockups of web pages, etc.
* It is my understanding that two copies of LR can't read a catalog at the same time, so we can't operate in a true multi-user environment where we're both using LR at the same time.
* Until she's become more expert at using Elements, I don't want her using LR or working with the "official" catalog or images - there's too much of a chance she'll do some major damage.
* For her work, she needs a complete set of all images - ideally in the most current, post-processed form. [/quote]

I run into this often. My spouse is not a techie. My spouse only want to use Elements/Picasa/Windows Picture Gallery/whatever. I sympathize with your problem.

So let me be blunt again.

You have really two choices. Either she learns an efficient way of accomplishing these tasks, or you are once again setting yourself up for hours of frustration. Not a pleasant choice, but one you will have to make.

The most efficient method of proceeding is, in my opinion, to teach your wife how to use Lightroom's Library Module. Then, you can Export as Catalog a portion of your "official" catalog, transfer to another computer where you wife can use Lightroom to make whatever changes are needed. Then, you would have to "integrate" these changes back to your official catalog, probably after verifying that these changes are indeed correct. (Make regular backups of your official catalog!)

Another method that ought to work is to use freeware tools such as ExifToolGUI or GeoSetter to change the metadata. Again, you will have to verify the changes and then "integrate" the changes back into your official catalog.

In either case, I wouldn't have your wife work on Exported JPGs. Have her work on copies of the originals.

Please, no more discussion of Elements on this project.

 

[dj_paige]

[quote author=Newmarket2 link=topic=9698.msg6566'#msg6566' date=127255'479]
* Yes, we plan on a single repository - the RAW and JPG images and LR catalog on my PC.
* She will use the images to create newsletters, product brochures, mockups of web pages, etc.
[/quote]

If she wants to use the images that are in the Lightroom catalog, she would have to know how to use Lightroom to FIND these images to use.

 

[Newmarket2]

OK, Paige. I'm sold.

I'd like to explore using Lightroom for my wife and exporting and importing catalogs.
But, I need some help with the workflow.

Can you get down a level and give me a bit more of a step by step *or* point me to a posting or article or tutorial where it might already exist?

I also should add that we're often not in the same physical location. We have tools for moving big files but I can't base a workflow on her being able to access my hard drive directly.

 

[Denis Pagé]

Michael, you may be interested to read this thread and pick what you see fit to your workflow...

 

[dj_paige]

[quote author=Newmarket2 link=topic=9698.msg65688#msg65688 date=1272567467]
OK, Paige. I'm sold.

I'd like to explore using Lightroom for my wife and exporting and importing catalogs.
But, I need some help with the workflow.

Can you get down a level and give me a bit more of a step by step *or* point me to a posting or article or tutorial where it might already exist?

I also should add that we're often not in the same physical location. We have tools for moving big files but I can't base a workflow on her being able to access my hard drive directly. [/quote]

Step 1: select desired photos in Lightroom Grid for your wife to use (doesn't have to be the entire catalog)

Step 2: File->Export as Catalog to somewhere else on your hard drive; making sure to check Include Negatives

Step 3: Transfer all of this to wife's computer

Step 4: On wife's computer, in Lightroom, File->Import From Catalog and point it to the stuff that was just transferred

Step 5: Adjust metadata as desired

Step 5A (Optional): Validate that the adjustments are correct

Step 6: Move entire catalog and photos back to a separate location on first computer.

Step 7: Here I need help from other Lightroom experts, as I have never done this step when the same photos are in both catalogs. The idea is to use File->Import From Catalog, but I don't know if this can be done, or exactly how to do it, since the photos will be in both catalogs at this time (the original catalog, and the edited catalog). I know this works if there are different photos in both catalogs...

It certainly wouldn't hurt to do a little experiment on the entire process with say 3 dummy photos where it doesn't really matter if things go wrong.

 

[Jim Wilde]

Paige, as I understand the process Step 7 is an Import from Catalog function as you suggested (selecting the .lrcat from Step 6), but choosing in the Replace section the option for 'Metadata and develop settings only', i.e. because the main catalog already contains the negatives (images) no need to re-import them. LR will then apply the updated Metatada and/or Develop Settings to those images.

I think that's the way it's supposed to be done, but happy to be corrected if it's not. Also I'm not sure if Step 6 has to be an "Export as Catalog" function (but not checking both the Export Negatives and Include Available Previews options), or whether it's simply OK to import the catalog as is from Step 6. Need a Guru's advice on that.

 

[dj_paige]

[quote author=TNG link=topic=9698.msg65696#msg65696 date=127257387']
Paige, as I understand the process Step 7 is an Import from Catalog function as you suggested (selecting the .lrcat from Step 6), but choosing in the Replace section the option for 'Metadata and develop settings only', i.e. because the main catalog already contains the negatives (images) no need to re-import them. LR will then apply the updated Metatada and/or Develop Settings to those images.
[/quote]

Sounds good to me!

 

[Jim Wilde]

[quote author=Newmarket2 link=topic=9698.msg65599#msg65599 date=1272474732]

I'll be a bit more specific: she would be applying keywords and entering captions and labels, etc. Will this work?

She might also "suggest" crops, but I would only use that as a guide for doing the same crop in LR.
[/quote]

If this is ALL that your wife needs to do, then you could simplify the workflow suggested by Paige even further, as there would be no need to include the negatives (copies of the raw files) with the exported catalog. Provided you include a standard preview with the export, you wife will be able to work happily in the Library module, applying keywords, captions, ratings, etc. She would NOT be able to do any develop (including crop) or quick develop actions. If that is all you need to be able to achieve, the amended workflow would be (changes in bold):

Step 1: select desired photos in Lightroom Grid for your wife to use (doesn't have to be the entire catalog). Render Standard Previews for selected images.

Step 2: File->Export as Catalog to somewhere else on your hard drive; making sure to uncheck Include Negatives, but check Include Available Previews.

Step 3: Transfer all of this to wife's computer

Step 4: On wife's computer, in Lightroom, File->Import From Catalog and point it to the stuff that was just transferred

Step 5: Adjust metadata as desired

Step 5A (Optional): Validate that the adjustments are correct

Step 6: Move entire catalog and photos back to a separate location on first computer. Select the images and choose Export as Catalog. Uncheck BOTH the Include Available Previews and Include Negatives boxes (because all you want to transfer back is the updated metadata).

Step 7: On main LR catalog, choose Import from Catalog and select the transfer catalog. The resulting dialog box will indicate how many of the images are new (should be zero) and how many have got changes...and in the Changed Images section you should select Replace Metadata and Develop Settings Only. Furthermore, just in case you are not yet 1''% certain about your wife's changes you even have the option to retain the old settings as a virtual copy.

As Paige suggested, why now give a go on a small set of images....I think you might find it works just fine and has the benefit of getting your wife comfortable with Lightroom before you let her loose on full develop mode!!

 

[Newmarket2]

Now this is something I can get my teeth into!
Thanks to everyone (so far) for the help.
I'm going to have to do testing for a while and lay out a very clear, written set of rules.
I'll get back with questions, as needed, or updates.

 

[dj_paige]

Thanks for you suggestions and smiley faces, Jim :'( >

I learned a few things from your post.

 

[Jim Wilde]

[quote author=dj_paige link=topic=9698.msg65728#msg65728 date=1272631'32]

I learned a few things from your post.
[/quote]

That's good to know, Paige......but I'll bet nowhere near as much as I've learned from you guys since I joined up!

One thing I haven't yet learned....is there a "Thumbs Up" smiley lurking around somewhere? :-[

 

[dj_paige]

Hey let's be honest. Even though sometimes I think I know everything that there is in Lightroom, in reality there's a lot of features in Lightroom that I have never used; and situations that can arise that I have never experienced.

I think that's why I created this forum ... <== that's a joke, of course

 

[Denis Pagé]

Jim. The last method you explained is the one I would use and recommend. Perfectly good workflow!