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Understanding DEVELOP Color Profile

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It may just be me, but I just noticed that the default Profile in Develop appears to be Camera Neutral. I've looked in both the FAQ and Google but still don't feel I have a good understanding of the purpose of 'Color Profile' over other controls in Develop. For example, if I select 'Camera Landscape', the greens pop out more but I don't see any changes in the control.

I found XMP attributes for crd:cameraprofile and crs:cameraprofile. The latter point me to the XMP Specifcation. So it's an attribute of the raw image itself. It sounds like the Camera specific profiles mimic those you can select in the camera if you choose to. The one you set for your picture is carried forward e.g. Camera Neutral.

However, I'm still confused as to when to use Color Profiles, presets and/or other Develop Controls in LR. Any pointers appreciated.

Thanks
 

kimballistic

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Profiles are in many ways the foundation of a raw processor. They provide the mathematical transformations that do the heavy lifting of translating demosaiced raw data into an actual viewable image in a proper color space.

Unfortunately profiles are dependent on the spectral characteristics of the light source used to create them, and also contain some elements that are more subjective in nature.

So because it's impossible to create ONE profile to rule them all, Adobe provides us with a slew of options to suite our needs, as well as the ability to install our own profiles for odd light sources (or for general usage) if we want to.

For a deep dive into profiles, you can read Lumariver Profile Designer's manual:


I recommend reading the introduction and then skipping to the "Profile-making theory" section.
 
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If you have a Canon Camera you have probably applied some of Canon's Picture styles in camera to develop a JPEG. Camera Neutral is one of them. Adobe Has reverse engineered these and Name them after the Canon Equivalent. Nikon called theirs "Picture Styles". Adobe has further refined these and has their own Camera Profiles that take advantage of the functionality in Lightroom. To further address the "predevelop" option Adobe has created Vintage, Modern B&W profiles to choose if you like. These are applied primarily to the RAW file imported since the JPEG have already had something like the applied the the camera converted the RAW to JPRG.

You can apply these on Import and I believe Camera Neutral is the default if left unchanged.
 

kimballistic

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Eh, sorry, I didn't address your last point about profiles vs. presets vs. develop controls.

The individual controls in the Develop module are your creative tools. They are what you use to fine tune the look you want in an image.

Presets are just a collection of Develop module settings that help speed up your workflow. You can create your own presets to instantly set a number of develop settings, and you can also buy presets online if you want to incorporate someone else's look, or if you're not sure how to use the individual Develop settings yet.

So while Profiles also change the look of an image (and lately Adobe has blurred the lines even further between profiles & presets), generally speaking Profiles operate at a much more fundamental level in the image processing pipeline than do Presets and Develop settings.

I'd recommend starting with a Profile you like, and then editing from there. A lot of photographers like to start with the most neutral profile they can (Adobe Neutral or Camera Neutral) so that they can apply their own edits without immediately creating an image that looks "overcooked."

More Adobe-specific information on Profiles here:
 
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I'm slightly confused. My understanding is that "Adobe Color" is the default profile. So why does the original poster say that "Camera Neutral" appears to be the default profile (and why does Cletus say the same thing)?
 
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I'm slightly confused. My understanding is that "Adobe Color" is the default profile. So why does the original poster say that "Camera Neutral" appears to be the default profile (and why does Cletus say the same thing)?
Without seeing a screenshot of the Preferences>Presets tab, it's difficult to be certain. However, the recent change to the way default develop settings are applied on import (even without applying a develop preset during import), allows the user to select "Camera Settings" as either the global default for all imports, or on a camera-specific basis. So, if "Camera Settings" has been set, that will use the appropriate camera-matching profile that matches the in-camera profile (provided camera-matching profiles have been created by Adobe for the specific camera).
It's also possible to have the camera-matching profile applied on import even when "Camera Settings" doesn't actually appear in the Presets tab...if the user sets one of their own develop presets as the global default in place of "Adobe Default", and that develop preset does NOT have the "Treatment & Profile" box checked, then if a camera-matching profile is available it will be applied automatically. That's because "Camera Settings" is the actual default for raw conversion, which is only replaced by "Adobe Default" when the latter is set as the default (which it is by default!). So if the default is set to "Camera Settings" or to a different preset which doesn't include the "Treatment & Profile" setting, then the initial raw conversion uses "Camera Settings" (so any camera-matching profile will be used if one exists...if not, Adobe Color would be used), then the specific develop preset set in the preferences is applied.
The attached preset shows my Preferences>Presets tab......you will see that I have changed the default to one of my own ISO-dependent presets, in which "Treatment & Profile" was unchecked, which means that any raw image I import will be converted using either the appropriate camera-matching profile if one exists, or will use Adobe Color, with develop settings then applied by the preset.

Presets.PNG
 
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I thought Adobe Default is (was?) the default, but your settings explain why your images are being converted using the Camera Natural matching profile. If that's not what you want, change the default to Adobe Default.
 
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I thought Adobe Default is (was?) the default
I did a quick test. My Nikon D5300 had it's 'Picture Control' set to 'Camera Natural'. I changed it in the camera to 'Camera Vivid' and took a picture. When I imported into LR, Develop shows the Profile as 'Color Vivid' in the Basic Profile. So the default seems to be whatever is set in XMP crs:CameraProfile (page 55).

Now to play around and see how/if I want to add a selection of Camera/Color Profile in my workflow.
 
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So the default seems to be whatever is set in XMP crs:CameraProfile (page 55).
Sort of......the camera writes the Picture Control/Style into the header of the raw file, and so if the default preset is set to Camera Settings (as yours is), LR will now read that information and will use the associated camera-matching profile (if one has been created) as part of the raw conversion. Obviously not all cameras will have camera-matching profiles, so if none exists LR will use the Adobe Color profile.
 
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Obviously not all cameras will have camera-matching profiles
True Jim, but it looks like the majority of cameras do have an equivalent function. From here:

"When digital cameras first became available, all photos looked the same when it came to color. You could adjust parameters like contrast and saturation if you knew where to find the menu option, but there was no easy or straightforward way of doing so.
Then manufacturers started adding color profiles to their cameras. I’m using the term color profile deliberately because every manufacturer has a different name for it. They are listed below:
  • Canon: Picture Style
  • Nikon: Picture Control
  • Fujifilm: Film Simulation Mode
  • Sony: Creative Style
  • Pentax: Custom Image
  • Olympus: Picture Mode"
 
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Did some more testing. The NEF file out of the camera contains Nikon specific Makernote metadata with PictureControlName and PictureControlBase containing "Vivid". When LR saves this to (at least) the XMP it shows as crd:CameraProfile="Camera VIVID". The CRD tags are defined under http://ns.adobe.com/camera-raw-defaults/1.0/.
 
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True Jim, but it looks like the majority of cameras do have an equivalent function.
You misunderstand me.....I'm not talking about the in-camera picture styles, I'm talking about the camera-matching profiles developed by Adobe to attempt to replicate that in-camera picture style. Adobe do create them for many cameras, but certainly not for all.....a good example is all the recent Canon cameras which use the latest CR3 file format....the majority of those have not had camera-matching profiles developed yet due to some issue between Adobe and Canon, and which will result in the Adobe Color profile always being used even if "Camera Settings" has been set as the default develop preset.
 
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Thanks very much Jim for your detailed explanations. I am learning something about a part of Lightroom to which I have never paid much attention.

A part of my simple brain wants to complain about Adobe's use of the word "default" here. To me, the "default" is whatever the settings are when a brand-new out-of-the-box instance of Lightroom is installed. (I have never changed these settings, and my Preferences -> Presets -> "Raw defaults" -> Master is set to "Adobe Default", and my color profile in Develop always starts at "Adobe Color".) Once you start choosing different settings, selecting "Camera Settings" for example, then I don't think of the results as "defaults" any longer, I think they should be called "initial settings" or "start-up settings" or something similar. But then, I'm easily confused.

I thought Adobe Default is (was?) the default ...
Yes, me too. But Paul says he hasn't changed his, and it is set to "Camera Settings". Curious.
 

PhilBurton

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Did some more testing. The NEF file out of the camera contains Nikon specific Makernote metadata with PictureControlName and PictureControlBase containing "Vivid". When LR saves this to (at least) the XMP it shows as crd:CameraProfile="Camera VIVID". The CRD tags are defined under http://ns.adobe.com/camera-raw-defaults/1.0/.
Paul,

Link didn't work for me.

Phil
 
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Over the past few years, Nikon has started embedding the Picture Control setting as well as other settings for sharpening and noise reduction in the raw file. If you have a program like Raw Digger you can see the embedded XMP and the settings. There are also adjustments for Active D-Lighting in that embedded XMP. These settings vary based on the ISO level (noise reduction). I also have found the settings are very generic - for example the Z6 and Z7 sharpening and noise reduction settings are the same even though sensor resolution is very different and that suggests more aggressive Detail settings. On the latest cameras, these settings are not reverse engineered by Adobe - they are directly provided by Nikon in the NEF file with the embedded XMP.

My baseline Picture Control is Standard, so the Camera Standard profile is applied to my images on import. I can apply different settings through a preset or create my own profiles. I can also choose alternate Camera profiles just like I can choose alternate picture controls. But - not all picture controls are available as a Camera Profile - just the standard picture controls such as Neutral, Standard, Vivid, etc.
 
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Over the past few years, Nikon has started embedding the Picture Control setting as well as other settings for sharpening and noise reduction in the raw file. .
AFAIK, Nikon, Canon and others have always done this. It is the develop setting the Nikon uses to process the raw data into a JPEG using the iIn camera processor.
it is also the same metadata fueled that Nikon apples in their NX2 software
Until recently, Lightroom only reverse engineered these camera settings. Now Lightroom is reading the metadata field and applying that reverse engineered field as a Camera profile. The default camera profile used by Lightroom can be changed


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