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Syncing edits to Jpgs to their RAW counterparts?

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summerseddy

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
34
Lightroom Experience
Advanced
Lightroom Version
Classic
Lightroom Version Number
10.4
Operating System
  1. Windows 11
Hi everybody,

Might seem like a bit of a weird one, but I recently started using Fuji and they seem to do a terrific job in camera for Jpgs. I did an event last Friday and have culled and lightly polished 200+jpgs. I would now like to import their RAW counterparts into LR (I shot RAW+Jpg) and I think I would like to sync each individual Jpg edit parameters (such as which grain I applied, tone curve etc etc) to also the RAWs, at least as a quick starting point for a RAW edit (that might take on a different overall rendering or allow for the odd file to recover some dynamic range a little better where needed).

I'm unsure how to do this however. Can I export the edits made to Jpgs as some kind of sidecar and then tell LR to apply that sidecar to the RAW files on import? (they should have the same filename, just different extensions of course).

This was my first time attempting this kind of workflow and it massively speeded up things, but perhaps there is a better way moving forward? Perhaps I should be importing both RAW+Jpgs at the same time and somehow edit the Jpgs and have those changes automatically applying to the RAW counterpart? Is that possible?

TIA

Eddy
 
Solution
My Syncomatic plugin copies metadata and LR adjustments from one file type to another, matching by file names.

As already discussed, there is a difference between raw and JPEG processing and the results may not be as perfect as you might hope. Still, you can try the plugin without buying - it's limited to 10 items at a time.
I'm no expert but my guess would be no you can't. If Fuji software handles writing edits to jpegs like LrC does then edits are baked into the file. The only sidecar files I've ever seen for jpeg are .modd files which were generated by a program called BreezeBrowser and the .modd was just exif information. Besides, and no judgment, why would you want the jpeg edits as a sidecar? You already have the jpegs that you've edited how you like. It's no different than editing raw files in LrC then exporting them as jpegs. Just import both the raws and jpegs into LrC and make sure have the preferences set to treat jpegs and raw files as separate files. That way you have the edited jpegs for sharing or printing and the raw files in case you want to re-edit non-destructively. Hope that makes sense. I'm sure the gurus on this website will have a better answer than I.
 
I must admit that your workflow is one I've never seen before, and I though I'd seen it all !

Fir st of all, I think you're headed for a dissappointment. By definition a RAW image is unprocessed (or more accuratly, un-rendered). This means that it has no pixels. Instead it has readings off of the sensor that have not yet been converted to colors and brightnesses. I don't know if this is true but I think the values are actually voltages provided by the sensor. In order for you to see an image from a RAW file, a program must take these sensor readings and decide what color and brightnees to show you on a screen. This is a process called "Rendering".

When you import a RAW image into LrC, it is rendered using code developed by Adobe programmers. When you get a JPG from the camera, like your Fuji, programmers working for Fuji wrote the code to render the image. But, it gets more compicated. When images are rendered, there isn't just one answer. In the camera you can tell the camera how to render the image. I don't know what this is called in a Fuji, but Canon calls it "Picture Style" but we can just call it by the generic term "profile". For example, Normal, Vivid, Monochrome, natural, Etc. Which profile you use in the camera alters the rules used to render the image and thus the look of the image. Likewise what profile you use with LrC will change the looks of the rendered image when applied to a RAW file.

So, in your case, the JPG image was rendered according to what profile (style) you had set in the camera when you shot the image. This is the starting point for your Develop Module adjustments. You then layered additional changes to that rendered JPG in the Develop module. The problem you are going to face in your desired workflow is that if you take your develop module tweaks that were applied to a Fuji rendered JPG image, and apply them to a RAW version of the image rendered by LrC using an Adobe created profile, that may or may not be close match to the fuji profile, your results may be markedly different. Now, you should first assure that the LrC profile used with the RAW file is the Adobe programmed version of what Adobe thinks the selected Fuji profile was when shot. With luck this may be close enough.

But, your question was how do you do that. First of all your LrC edits done to a Jpg do not generate seperate XMP files. Rather the XMP data is stored in the catalog and optionally stored inside the JPG file itself - not in a seperate XMP file. This means that you don't have an XMP file to use with the RAW file. So, 2nd option is to use the XMP date stored in the catalog with the RAW file.

Here's how to do this. You'll of course have to do this image by image
  1. import the RAW file and set the profile to the Adobe equivilent of the Fuji profile used in camera to geneate the Jpg
  2. in the Library Module, Grid View, select both the JPG and RAW versions of the image, with the JPG version being the active (most selected) of the two
  3. Click the Sync Settings button at the bottom of the right panel group
  4. in the pop up dialog box, check the develop module features that you want copied from the JPG to the RAW image
Let us know if the results are close to what you expect.
 
I'm no expert but my guess would be no you can't. If Fuji software handles writing edits to jpegs like LrC does then edits are baked into the file. The only sidecar files I've ever seen for jpeg are .modd files which were generated by a program called BreezeBrowser and the .modd was just exif information. Besides, and no judgment, why would you want the jpeg edits as a sidecar? You already have the jpegs that you've edited how you like. It's no different than editing raw files in LrC then exporting them as jpegs. Just import both the raws and jpegs into LrC and make sure have the preferences set to treat jpegs and raw files as separate files. That way you have the edited jpegs for sharing or printing and the raw files in case you want to re-edit non-destructively. Hope that makes sense. I'm sure the gurus on this website will have a better answer than I.

Thanks for your input.
I must admit that your workflow is one I've never seen before, and I though I'd seen it all !

Fir st of all, I think you're headed for a dissappointment. By definition a RAW image is unprocessed (or more accuratly, un-rendered). This means that it has no pixels. Instead it has readings off of the sensor that have not yet been converted to colors and brightnesses. I don't know if this is true but I think the values are actually voltages provided by the sensor. In order for you to see an image from a RAW file, a program must take these sensor readings and decide what color and brightnees to show you on a screen. This is a process called "Rendering".

When you import a RAW image into LrC, it is rendered using code developed by Adobe programmers. When you get a JPG from the camera, like your Fuji, programmers working for Fuji wrote the code to render the image. But, it gets more compicated. When images are rendered, there isn't just one answer. In the camera you can tell the camera how to render the image. I don't know what this is called in a Fuji, but Canon calls it "Picture Style" but we can just call it by the generic term "profile". For example, Normal, Vivid, Monochrome, natural, Etc. Which profile you use in the camera alters the rules used to render the image and thus the look of the image. Likewise what profile you use with LrC will change the looks of the rendered image when applied to a RAW file.

So, in your case, the JPG image was rendered according to what profile (style) you had set in the camera when you shot the image. This is the starting point for your Develop Module adjustments. You then layered additional changes to that rendered JPG in the Develop module. The problem you are going to face in your desired workflow is that if you take your develop module tweaks that were applied to a Fuji rendered JPG image, and apply them to a RAW version of the image rendered by LrC using an Adobe created profile, that may or may not be close match to the fuji profile, your results may be markedly different. Now, you should first assure that the LrC profile used with the RAW file is the Adobe programmed version of what Adobe thinks the selected Fuji profile was when shot. With luck this may be close enough.

But, your question was how do you do that. First of all your LrC edits done to a Jpg do not generate seperate XMP files. Rather the XMP data is stored in the catalog and optionally stored inside the JPG file itself - not in a seperate XMP file. This means that you don't have an XMP file to use with the RAW file. So, 2nd option is to use the XMP date stored in the catalog with the RAW file.

Here's how to do this. You'll of course have to do this image by image
  1. import the RAW file and set the profile to the Adobe equivilent of the Fuji profile used in camera to geneate the Jpg
  2. in the Library Module, Grid View, select both the JPG and RAW versions of the image, with the JPG version being the active (most selected) of the two
  3. Click the Sync Settings button at the bottom of the right panel group
  4. in the pop up dialog box, check the develop module features that you want copied from the JPG to the RAW image
Let us know if the results are close to what you expect.

Thanks for the input.

I shall clarify the point a little better as I may have rushed it first time round, you will see the approach I want is actually fairly logical and sound.

First of all... Fuji.

Fuji is fairly unique I feel with it's colour filmsims and styles available in camera. It is so popular that many forums and groups have strict rules for sharing images, images that have only come straight from camera (SOOC) or practically SOOC (some light polishing of the Jpg only). The whys for this sort of thing vary hugely depending on user. It is not meant to be a Jpg vs RAW argument or point (those arguments are silly). For the groups and forums perspective it is to see the vast array of in camera colours and styles that are natively built in without possibly even needing an advanced post processing editor. This allows newbies to see what Fuji and the camera user is possible to achieve alone without post processing or minimal.

You can see examples here and how popular this principle is;

https://fujixweekly.com/fujifilm-x-trans-iv-recipes/

So now imagine this power in the hands of skilled and experienced photographers. They are snapping at the event or job and getting instant feedback of an image that would normally be quite flat and dull looking (RAW) and instead taking on the life of something that more closely resembles a finished edit in LR.
Now imagine taking those files into LR or some other editor and just 'tidying them up', 10secs per image, a few Presence and Tone adjustments on the sliders, done. This makes for a super fast turnaround/job vs essentially starting from scratch with a RAW (jpgs tend to also work faster on slower machines in post).

This DOES NOT mean this approach should be universal. RAW will always be necessary for many other jobs and applications, but I just wanted to cement first the idea of working from Jpgs being the priority here, and the RAWs secondary and that it's not insanity but gaining popularity quickly, especially in the professional market where time is money. It makes good business sense, a small amount of set up time in camera (call it 'prepost processing') for a super fast turnaround of images for the client/job.

So now we (I) have 200+ Jpgs culled and lightly edited in LR... but think about things for a minute. If the edits made and applied to the Jpg (which has less maneuverability than the RAW) were ok and fine, then it's a good bet the SAME type of changes made to their RAW counterpart would also make sense, at least from a starting point. For example, if the Jpg was underexposed, lacking in contrast, and bumping up contrast and raising exposure fixed or improved that image, then it's a good bet the same approach will be needed for the Jpgs counterpart RAW file, right? I mean not always, you might want to steer the image another direction, in which case you could just hit 'Reset', but you get the point. Changes made to the Jpg are likely going to be changes you'd make to the RAW.
Or what about other things like say you applied a certain grain that worked, a certain crop, a certain vignette etc etc. So I'm not necessarily saying I would want all the boxes ticked for the sync of Jpg to RAW but certainly a few and my choice.
But LR is pretty great with Fuji files anyway. If for example I shot a RAW+Jpg in Acros (a monochrome render in camera), then the RAW will start off as that Acros profile anyway.

So why RAW at all? Because sometimes you get a great shot, and you might want to give it as a triptych or something to the client. Same image, 3 different versions. Or you might decide the dynamic range of the Jpg version struggled a little and the RAW was needed for this particular image, and so on so forth.

1) So now I am pondering the workflow going forward for this approach. I could continue as I have done and then handpick the RAWs I deem worthy or need and import into LR and then manually sync the changes made previously to the Jpg to the RAW (for each of those files Zzz...).

2) Or perhaps in future I import both Jpgs and RAWs, ensure that Jpgs are treated separately from the RAWs and when I make my changes have All Sync on and the RAW counterpart selected as well, that sounds like the best strategy for next time.

I dunno if there is a way to click the Jpg (have it selected as the working file) whilst simultaneously having the RAW highlight automatically for you (and All Sync on)? That would be ideal I think, a kind of 'background syncing' without having to engage the brain and constantly ensure you're always highlighting the partner file (though they should in theory be next to one another in the film strip, I could colour label them to help distinguish the file types etc).
 
My Syncomatic plugin copies metadata and LR adjustments from one file type to another, matching by file names.

As already discussed, there is a difference between raw and JPEG processing and the results may not be as perfect as you might hope. Still, you can try the plugin without buying - it's limited to 10 items at a time.
 
Solution
My Syncomatic plugin copies metadata and LR adjustments from one file type to another, matching by file names.

As already discussed, there is a difference between raw and JPEG processing and the results may not be as perfect as you might hope. Still, you can try the plugin without buying - it's limited to 10 items at a time.
That sounds ideal, where might I try/buy this plugin please :)

Edit: Found it in your Signature, ta.
 
1) So now I am pondering the workflow going forward for this approach. I could continue as I have done and then handpick the RAWs I deem worthy or need and import into LR and then manually sync the changes made previously to the Jpg to the RAW (for each of those files Zzz...).
I don't think you can sync a camera style jpeg (for lack of better terminology) to a pure raw file in LrC. I think, and again I'm no guru, the best you could hope for is as stated above by @Califdan is to try to duplicate the look of the camera styled jpeg using LrC develop module.
 
I don't think you can sync a camera style jpeg (for lack of better terminology) to a pure raw file in LrC. I think, and again I'm no guru, the best you could hope for is as stated above by @Califdan is to try to duplicate the look of the camera styled jpeg using LrC develop module.

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that I want the RAW to exactly look like the Jpg edits. At no point did I mention this is what I want. I made the point that I might want some adjustments synced across, such as crop, vignette, grain etc. I am fully away that a cameras Jpg (especially if having a heap of Jpg/IQ options turned on) is going to look quite indifferent from the RAW. The point is that many edits of a Jpg will likely be applied to the RAW as well, like I said... if for example the Jpg is lacking in exposure and contrast, then if I made those changes to the Jpg it is possible the same slider adjustments would be welcome on the RAW. It doesn't mean they will look the same, nor necessarily be the direction I want, but it's easy to click 'reset' on the odd RAW file where it's made a cock up. It's about getting a starting point quickly for the edit of the RAW that resembles closer to the Jpg at least in terms of composition (crop) and all that other stuff.

I will likely want 2-3 Sync Settings, the first being something basic like Crop only. If I cropped or straightened the Jpg then it's likely I want the same crop for the RAW. This first stage sync will likely not be reversed. Then a second Sync might be vignette and/or grain. Then a third Sync might be Tone Curve, Presence tool etc. So then when inspecting the RAW file with the multiple Syncs in the history panel, if I decide the tone adjustments are worse than just a zero'd exposure, presence, tone curve I can take a step back in the history panel to leaving it just with the crop and vignette/grain adjustments synced etc.

Anyway it looks like Johnbeardy's plugin will do exactly what I am looking for.


If I were to adopt a Fujifilm Camera and shoot RAW, I would explore the use of own software,

FUJIFILM X RAW Studio.​


Yes this is a great tool, definitely welcome. It doesn't help my situation and because its using the camera's processor it is slow and cumbersome (defeating the principle of a speeded up workflow here) but it for sure is a welcome package from Fuji.
 
I don't think you can sync a camera style jpeg (for lack of better terminology) to a pure raw file in LrC.

But you can get close enough. I'm also mainly a Fuji user, and by setting the Raw Defaults preference to Camera Settings you can ensure that the basic colour rendering is similar to the Fuji film simulations. It's then a question of how adjustments to the JPEG such as Shadows or masks can be passed to the Raw file, and that's where the plugin is relevant. The raw does not perfectly match the JPEG, but one shouldn't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
 
Last edited:
But you can get close enough. I'm also mainly a Fuji user, and by setting the Raw Defaults preference to Camera Settings you can ensure that the basic colour rendering is similar to the Fuji film simulations. It's then a question of how adjustments to the JPEG such as Shadows or masks can be passed to the Raw file, and that's where the plugin is relevant. It's not perfect, but one shouldn't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Hey John,

Plugin bought, I have to go to work shortly so can't test right now, but just wanted to ask... is it possible to sync only some things? Or will your plugin sync only the entire Develop Mode changes made?
It would be really cool if I could tell the plugin to only sync say the crop for example.
 
It's all or nothing in Develop settings. That's mostly by design and customer demand, but crop is an exception. Setting the crop is not officially supported by Adobe, so the plugin uses a workaround / unofficial method. but that's still awkward because of how a JPEG records its orientation compared to how a raw file does. Hope I've explained that clearly!
 
It's all or nothing in Develop settings. That's mostly by design and customer demand, but crop is an exception. Setting the crop is not officially supported by Adobe, so the plugin uses a workaround / unofficial method. but that's still awkward because of how a JPEG records its orientation compared to how a raw file does. Hope I've explained that clearly!
Perfectly, thanks John, can't wait to try it out.
 
If I were to adopt a Fujifilm Camera and shoot RAW, I would explore the use of own software,

FUJIFILM X RAW Studio.​

Dating myself here but I still shoot Sony DSLRs, A99II and A77II and when those cameras first came on the scene Sony had collaborated with Capture1 to offer a free version to Sony patrons and then later offered a $50 upgrade to the Pro version for developed for Sony raw files only. Anyway, my point is, that Capture1 was then touted to be a much better Sony raw file developer than anything else on the market including Lightroom. A side note: Adobe had not yet taken Lightroom to the subscription model.
 
Hey all,

I just wanted to report back how wonderful @johnbeardy's Lightroom plugin has worked for me, it has been a humongous help and will become instrumental with my workflow for event work to come.
I know my approach might seem a little odd to many seasoned LR users, but perhaps I can explain in a little more detail how well this Plugin worked for me.
On the night of the event I decided monochrome would be my preferred choice of in camera rendering. I opted for a slightly modified Agfa APX 400 filmsim recipe detailed below;

https://fujixweekly.com/2019/04/18/my-fujifilm-x-t30-acros-film-simulation-recipe-agfa-apx-400/

I have a few other mono filmsims stored on my XT4, I tend to run through a few test shots before the guests arrive but I felt in camera the Agfa APX 400 was working the best for the lighting and room and attire.
It is a wonderful experience to shoot the night RAW+Jpg and see on the back of the camera a result that is more like a 90% finished product you'd be happy with in LR, but also mono works well to help you see in 'light and dark' (something I tend to appreciate for making more deliberate or artistic exposure choices at the time of the shot).

Once the event is finished and the files backed up it's time to begin the culling process and then lightly polish and sort the 200+ Jpgs. This is where the benefits really begin to shine. Each file just needs basic adjustments, crop, straightening, grain applied, Tone and Presence adjustments, we're talking 10-20secs an image (and many things can be synced across multiple files at a time).

And now I bring in the RAWs, and I use Syncomatic to apply all the edits I made to the Jpgs and apply to their RAW counterparts, even better I get to apply the Flag (cull) and Rating. Brilliant. The point here is that if a Jpg was underexposed, needed cropped and contrast boosted, then there's a good bet the RAW does too. That's where Syncomatic shines so well :)

Now I am left with RAWs that are cropped the same as the Jpg, same grain, same look but the colours are off, because the default profile used is Adobe Colour but also because the WB is not correct (because some Monochrome filmsim recipes might use a fixed WB and tint). But this was is an easy fix. I select the RAWs that were flagged correctly, All Sync on and select 'Auto WB' (as a good starting point) and change the Profile to something like 'Classic Negative'.
Wow, almost done! Some additional quick checking and mainly exposure adjustment fine tuning but really this process is incredible to me, the turn around for producing pleasing Mono and Colour versions of the night events has been super quick and efficient, I'm one happy camper.

PSOOC
DSCF0635-18.17.jpg


RAW Synced with Syncomatic, adjusted WB and Profile.
DSCF0635-18.17-2.jpg
 
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