Stacking, Keywords and Metadata

[ATJ-renamed]

I have only recently started using Lightroom and I don't know if I'm missing something obvious...

Since starting to use Lightroom I have been shooting raw+jpg mainly because I don't like the way Lightroom handles the raw images. Having the jpg there means I know what the image really looks like (at least based on my camera settings which I make good use of).

When I come back from a shoot I import all the images, both raw and jpg. I then Auto-Stack the images based on Capture Time and collapse all stacks. My first question is there any way to make Lightroom always put the jpg on top? At the moment, I get a mix and I have to select all the stacks with the NEF on top and move them down.

Once I have all the JPEGs on top, I can then work through my images and review them. If I want to set metadata or keywords, they only end up applying to the top image, which is the JPEG. Is there any way to get Lightroom to apply the metadata and keywords to all images in a collapsed stack?

 

[ATJ-renamed]

Andrew, gidday!!
What Brad is asking is what application are you viewing the exported images with? Is that application colour managed?

I am viewing the images in Firefox. The target is to display them on the web. I didn't think browsers were "colour managed" per se.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

JASC's Paint Shop Pro 9 is a "color managed" application BUT only if you tell it to be! Here is how: In the menu, go to File -> Preferences -> Color Management... There will be a dialog box appearing. There you may see "Image, Graphics or Text managed by: sRGB Color Space" and an unchecked box underneath it with everything grayed out below. If this is the case. Your Paint Shop Pro 9 program IS NOT COLOR MANAGED! :shock:

I have colour management turned off in PSP9. I did this on purpose because I was finding that the files I saved from PSP9 looked different when I used a web browser (e.g. Firefox) than they did it PSP9. My main purpose (at the moment) is to display my pictures on the web so having them look "right" is my main concern.

This raise me a question: When you say that you monitor is calibrated, do you mean it was calibrated using PaintShopPro9 utility or that you used a colorimeter/software bundle plugged into your computer?

I use gretagmacbeth Display Eye One to calibrate my monitor.

 

[Kiwigeoff]

There is something not quite right here Andrew, however as I use a Mac I'll defer to PC users now.

 

[Denis Pagé]

I use a Mac I'll defer to PC users now.

And do not forget to wash your hands :lol::mrgreen:
Not related but did you saw your PMs recently?

 

[Denis Pagé]

I use gretagmacbeth Display Eye One to calibrate my monitor.

So, it created a color profile file in your system.

In Paint Shop Pro, go back to that Color Management dialog box and activate color management. Choose the Gretagmacbeth created profile under Monitor Profile. But this is not all! You also want it outside Paint Shop so, right click your desktop, choose Properties -> Paremeters -> Advanced and the Color Management tab. There you should see you Display One created profile selected. Otherwise, add it.

For WEB display purpose, it is only at the moment of exporting/saving your images that you specify the needed color space (sRGB in this case). BTW, I just gave a visit to your site. Those photos are very nice and again worth the steep color management learning curve.

 

[Brad Snyder]

Denis has answered very well for me. That's exactly what I suspected, and where I was trying to get to.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

You also want it outside Paint Shop so, right click your desktop, choose Properties -> Paremeters -> Advanced and the Color Management tab. There you should see you Display One created profile selected.

This is done automatically by Display One and I have been using the latest created profile on my system since I have had the Display One, about a year now. I calibrate around once per month.

In Paint Shop Pro, go back to that Color Management dialog box and activate color management. Choose the Gretagmacbeth created profile under Monitor Profile.

I have done this in the past and get unsatisfactory results. With PSP9 set to use the monitor profile, what PSP9 displays is different from what I get after I save the JPG for the web (much like the problem I have now for Lightroom). With it set to sRGB, the images look the same:
NEF in CaptureNX
TIF in PSP9
JPG in Firefox.

Maybe the way I have it is wrong, but is seems to work.

For WEB display purpose, it is only at the moment of exporting/saving your images that you specify the needed color space (sRGB in this case). BTW, I just gave a visit to your site. Those photos are very nice and again worth the steep color management learning curve.

Maybe I need to try this all again, but as I said it has been working for me up until now.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

OK, I just changed PSP9 to use the monitor profile and reloaded the same image. It does not look the same in PSP9 as it does in ViewNX or CaptureNX. However, when I save the image as a JPG, the end result is the same. It seems that the only "value" I get from setting the monitor profile in PSP9 is that I don't get to see how the JPG will look with Firefox.

 

[Denis Pagé]

OK, I just changed PSP9 to use the monitor profile and reloaded the same image. It does not look the same in PSP9 as it does in ViewNX or CaptureNX. However, when I save the image as a JPG, the end result is the same. It seems that the only "value" I get from setting the monitor profile in PSP9 is that I don't get to see how the JPG will look with Firefox.

OK. Did you followed my advice of reading help for each line using the [?] button? It seem that you choose the radio button "Basic color management" wich is just relating how the images look on screen and printer. So, the last part of the Color Management dialog box is still grayed out isn't it?

Choose the second radio button beneath titled "Correction". Beside it, it says that it is to see images on screen/printer as they would apper on another peripheral or something like that (I have a french version). Then it will ungray the "Emulated Peripheral Profile" where you can choose "sRGB Color Space Profile" among ±3' profiles.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

This is what I have

Under Monitor Profile I only get the following three choices:
* CalibratedMonitorProfile
* IBM P96 ICC Profile
* sRGB Color Space Profile

 

[Denis Pagé]

This is what I have

:shock: So you are asking your monitor to emulate your monitor?

First: When you go to your desktop properties advanced... What is your choosen monitor profile? "CalibratedMonitorProfile" or "Monitor_3-'3-2''8_2"? The answer to this question should appear under "Monitor profile". Then, under "Emulated device profile" you want to emulate "sRBG Color Space".

 

[Denis Pagé]

OOPS! I missed that you had only those three choices.
I am confused then. Maybe the only profile appearing in your desktop dialog box is "CalibratedMonitorProfile"? So, where the other one is coming from? Why is it not listed in the available profiles on the desktop?...

 

[ATJ-renamed]

:shock: So you are asking your monitor to emulate your monitor?

Yes. Pretty silly, but that was the only place I could select the monitor profile.

First: When you go to your desktop properties advanced... What is your choosen monitor profile? "CalibratedMonitorProfile" or "Monitor_3-'3-2''8_2"? The answer to this question should appear under "Monitor profile". Then, under "Emulated device profile" you want to emulate "sRBG Color Space".

"Monitor_3-'3-2''8_2"

OOPS! I missed that you had only those three choices.
I am confused then. Maybe the only profile appearing in your desktop dialog box is "CalibratedMonitorProfile"? So, where the other one is coming from? Why is it not listed in the available profiles on the desktop?...

Of the three choices I have, 2 of them are listed in C:\WINDOWS\system32\spool\drivers\color and on the Color Management dialog in Windows. "CalibratedMonitorProfile" does not appear in the dialog but is in the directory.

I have never been able to get colour management to work in PSP9 which is why I have disabled it and things have been pretty much working correctly - or at least how I expect it to work.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

I just did something sneaky. I backed up CalibratedMonitorProfile.icc and then copied Monitor_3-'3-2''8_2.icc over the top of CalibratedMonitorProfile.icc. I guess this will work.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

OK, with PSP9 set to "CalibratedMonitorProfile" which is basically "Monitor_3-'3-2''8_2" under the covers, I still don't have WYSIWYG. The TIF file when loaded in to PSP9 looks different to what it looked like in CaptureNX. But, when I save as a JPG, I get a file which looks identical to what I had before when I had coloour management turned off. Also, if I choose "sRGB Color Space Profile" as the Monitor Profile, everything "works" i.e. I get WYSIWYG.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

Anyway, all this is getting off the track. I want to know how to make Lightroom show me how the export will look. If the export is different from what appears in Lightroom, I don't see the point.

Also, why can't I stack when I select images by keyword?

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Andrew, I've only skimmed over this thread, as it appears to have gone off on a variety of tangents, but try this for me:

Open your tif in Lightroom. Export to jpeg, sRGB, and import that into Lightroom. Does it match?

I'f you'd like me to investigate more thoroughly, feel free to drop the files on my FTP server (http://photoshopservices.dyndns.org:8'8')

And stacking is only available in Folders at this point in time. Hopefully it'll be added to other functions in future.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

Open your tif in Lightroom. Export to jpeg, sRGB, and import that into Lightroom. Does it match?

When imported into Lightroom the JPEG looks closer to the TIFF than when JPEG is displayed with Firefox/IE, but there are some subtle differences (although they may be compression artifacts?).

 

[Victoria Bampton]

What colour space is the original tiff set to? I'm wondering whether the difference you're noticing between the original and the sRGB imported into LR are down to the difference is gamut.

I'm not familiar with PSP's colour management setup, but it would be fairly easy to test in PS.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

Victoria,

The TIFF was created in CaptureNX by saving from the original NEF. How do I query the colour space of the TIFF?

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Phew, it's a few years since I've worked on a Windows system. Try finding in Windows Explorer > right click > Properties > I'd guess Advanced - and see if it tells you Colour Space anywhere.

Or go into Capture NX, assuming you haven't changed the settings since, and look for 'Output Space', possibly in preferences, maybe an output dialog.

Or just drop me the file.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

It's OK. I worked out how. CaptureNX tells me if I reload the file.

The TIFF was saved with my monitor profile. I changed it so it was saved with the embedded profile from the NEF (Nikon sRGB 4.'.'.3''1) and it is exactly the same in Lightroom.

Before I change the profile of the TIF I exported a full size 1''% JPEG and it is almost identical to the original TIF (with the monitor profile) as well as the new one with Nikon sRGB.

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Well done Andrew!

Hang on, so are we sorted or not?

You definitely don't want to be using a monitor profile as an image colour space, so that's useful to have found out. Use either AdobeRGB, sRGB or ProPhotoRGB as your working space. There are lots of pros and cons on each, but your Nikon sRGB will do nicely for now.

 

[ATJ-renamed]

Victoria,

No. I am nowhere near sorted. All I determined was the colour space in CaptureNX makes little or no difference to how the created TIFF appears in Lightroom. I have also established that if I create a JPEG with sRGB from the TIFF using Lightroom, the JPEG looks nearly identical (just a very slight difference in the histogram) as the TIFF when both a viewed in Lightroom.

I am still left with the problem that the same JPEG looks different when viewed with Firefox or IE compared to how the TIFF and the same JPEG looks in Lightroom. i.e. I'm not getting WSYSIWYG. This means I will not know what my final images will look like while working on them in Lightroom.

 

[Kiwigeoff]

Victoria,

No. I am nowhere near sorted. All I determined was the colour space in CaptureNX makes little or no difference to how the created TIFF appears in Lightroom. I have also established that if I create a JPEG with sRGB from the TIFF using Lightroom, the JPEG looks nearly identical (just a very slight difference in the histogram) as the TIFF when both a viewed in Lightroom.

I am still left with the problem that the same JPEG looks different when viewed with Firefox or IE compared to how the TIFF and the same JPEG looks in Lightroom. i.e. I'm not getting WSYSIWYG. This means I will not know what my final images will look like while working on them in Lightroom.

Andrew, one of the difficulties is the "language" each application uses or speaks. LR uses the colour managed language while IE and Firefox (I understand this is changing)speak unmanaged. What this means is the browsers are unaware of colour and display accordingly. It is something that not a lot can be done about except post process to bring them to what you want to see in say IE. Of course no other person will see the same as each monitor/system will display differently unless all are calibrated to a known value, colour managed applications are used, viewing conditions are the same, etc. There are just too many variations to get what you want. You may get a feel for what they will look like after you export from LR, personally I get them how I want them to look in LR and export as jpeg/sRGB for web posting and don't know what they look like elsewhere. I use a Mac with Safari which is colour managed/aware. You may want to try out Safari to see if that lets you see what you want, it is available for PC now. It still won't help with others viewing though!