Setting up new folders

[melkang]

Lightroom Version

Lightroom Classic version: 12.1 [ 202212072312-d7ab524b ]

Operating System

1. Windows 11

Setting up new folders
I recently set up a new folder system while in the LrC catalog. I created new folders in LrC and then moved files from the old folders to the new ones, again while in LrC. I did this to avoid deleting files from the catalog and then re-importing them. I understand that I would lose edits if I did that.
The old and new folders are organized by date – year, month, day. I moved the old files to the new folders by dragging and dropping. If I dropped the files into a new month folder, they automatically created day folders.
As I moved files, the old folders emptied and showed “0” images. I then deleted those folders from the catalog. The folders no longer show up in catalog, but are visible in the “source” panel in the import panel.
In MS File Explorer, the new folders are there with the images that were moved there. However, the old folders and images that I thought I was just moving are also still there. The old files are the same size (kb) as the new files.
If I delete these duplicate images and folders using Windows File Explorer, is there a danger I will lose the original RAW and XMP files? When I was moving the files, was I also creating copies of the files, and if so, how can I avoid that in the future.
Thank you for your assistance.

 

[GregJ]

I don't understand the duplication problem since you moved and did not copy the files. But don't start to delete, rename, move or copy anything in Explorer. Do it in LR. You can use explorer to see what is there and get a good look, but don't start trying to fix it in explorer or you are going to get in trouble.
I don't think you moved files like you thought you did. I think you created new folders and copied the files in there.
One of the Gurus is going to ask you for a screen shot of your file tree. I think you are duplicating folders.
But you said you moved the files and then deleted the empty old folder, but then you said the folder is still there full of the old files, thus a duplicate.
Do not start cleaning it up in File Explorer outside of LR. Figure it out and stay in LR.

 

[Califdan]

I created new folders in LrC and then moved files from the old folders to the new ones, again while in LrC

Exactly how did you do this? For each step please indicate if you were using the LrC folders panel or Windows Explorer

I did this to avoid deleting files from the catalog and then re-importing them. I understand that I would lose edits if I did that.

That is correct

I moved the old files to the new folders by dragging and dropping.

Using what tool? I'm getting the impression that using the Folders panel in LrC you created new folders either by clicking the "+" sign on the folder panel title bar or right clicking a folder and selecting "Create new folder within xxxxxxx". Then you selected some image files in the grid and dragged them to the newly created folder. Can you please confirm or correct?:

If I dropped the files into a new month folder, they automatically created day folders.

Here's where you lose me. The only times LrC will create new folders on it's own based on the capture date contained in images is in the Import Dialog, when you Synchronize Folders which actually invokes the import dialog for images on disk but not in the catalog, and when images are sync'd to LrC from LR/Cloud. But, you say this happened just by dragging images from the grid or filmstrip to a different folder in the folders panel. I don't believe there is a way for LrC to do that but maybe I've missed something.

Perhaps where you dragging a parent FOLDER in the folders panel from one place in the folder panel to another (you said "files" but maybe meant "folder")? If you dragged a folder to another place it would bring along all its previous subfolders along with it.

As I moved files, the old folders emptied and showed “0” images. I then deleted those folders from the catalog. The folders no longer show up in catalog, but are visible in the “source” panel in the import panel.

When you delete a folder in LrC using the Folders panel, It will remove any images in the catalog that show as being in that folder and then will see if the folder has any other files in it. If it is truly empty of all files it will delete the folder from disk but if there is anything still in the folder (e.g. an ".ini" file) it will leave it on disk. While the Folders panel only shows you folders that have images known to the lightroom catalog (along with parents of those folder), the Source panel in the import dialog shows you everything you'd see using Windows Explorer. This is standard behavior and as expected. Using Windows Explorer, take a look at one of these folders and in all likelyhood it is not empty. BUT I'D HOLD OFF TILL WE GET EVERYTHING ELSE WORKED OUT.

In MS File Explorer, the new folders are there with the images that were moved there. However, the old folders and images that I thought I was just moving are also still there. The old files are the same size (kb) as the new files.

If the old folders still have copies of the same images that you "moved" to the new folders, this could stem back to how you did the move (see questions above). Spot check several specific full file names to assure these are not just "other" photos that LrC wasn't aware of.

In Windows, the default behavor when using File Manager and dragging things from one drive to another is to "Copy" rather than "Move". Lightroom should deal with this though if you moved the images using LrC. But, did your operation move them from one disk drive to another? Over the years I have heard speculation that in some cases, the default Windows behavior prevailed. I need to test this again on my windows/10 machine but as I don't have a Windows/11 machine as you do, I can't test it there.

If I delete these duplicate images and folders using Windows File Explorer, is there a danger I will lose the original RAW and XMP files?

If you 100% that the images you are intending to delete DO NOT SHOW UP IN THE LRC CATALOG UNDER THE OLD DRIVE/FOLDER (the place you're going to delete them from ) and you are 100% sure that exactly the same images (full file name including extension) do show up in the LrC catalog in their new location and you can also see them in thier new location using Windows File Manager, then you can delete the old ones.

When I was moving the files, was I also creating copies of the files

You really like thowing monkey wrenches into the mix. Earlier you indicated that you did the moves using drag and drop. Please explain where and how you created additional copies at the same time?

 

[melkang]

Setting up new folders
I recently set up a new folder system while in the LrC catalog. I created new folders in LrC and then moved files from the old folders to the new ones, again while in LrC. I did this to avoid deleting files from the catalog and then re-importing them. I understand that I would lose edits if I did that.
The old and new folders are organized by date – year, month, day. I moved the old files to the new folders by dragging and dropping. If I dropped the files into a new month folder, they automatically created day folders.
As I moved files, the old folders emptied and showed “0” images. I then deleted those folders from the catalog. The folders no longer show up in catalog, but are visible in the “source” panel in the import panel.
In MS File Explorer, the new folders are there with the images that were moved there. However, the old folders and images that I thought I was just moving are also still there. The old files are the same size (kb) as the new files.
If I delete these duplicate images and folders using Windows File Explorer, is there a danger I will lose the original RAW and XMP files? When I was moving the files, was I also creating copies of the files, and if so, how can I avoid that in the future.
Thank you for your assistance.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[melkang]

Exactly how did you do this? For each step please indicate if you were using the LrC folders panel or Windows Explorer

I only used LrC for all of the changes I made to folders and their content.

Using what tool? I'm getting the impression that using the Folders panel in LrC you created new folders either by clicking the "+" sign on the folder panel title bar or right clicking a folder and selecting "Create new folder within xxxxxxx". Then you selected some image files in the grid and dragged them to the newly created folder. Can you please confirm or correct?:

Yes, I created new year folders using the "plus" button and the created new month folders within the year folder by right clicking. Then I either dragged the old month folder and on the new month folder or selected photos from the grid view and dragged and dropped them. So in answer to your next question, I did drag and drop some month folders that contained day subfolders.

In Windows, the default behavor when using File Manager and dragging things from one drive to another is to "Copy" rather than "Move". Lightroom should deal with this though if you moved the images using LrC. But, did your operation move them from one disk drive to another? Over the years I have heard speculation that in some cases, the default Windows behavior prevailed. I need to test this again on my windows/10 machine but as I don't have a Windows/11 machine as you do, I can't test it there.

I did not move files from disk to disk.

If you 100% that the images you are intending to delete DO NOT SHOW UP IN THE LRC CATALOG UNDER THE OLD DRIVE/FOLDER (the place you're going to delete them from ) and you are 100% sure that exactly the same images (full file name including extension) do show up in the LrC catalog in their new location and you can also see them in thier new location using Windows File Manager, then you can delete the old ones.

The old folders do not show up in the folders panel which I assume means they are not in the LrC catalog. They only still exist in File Manager. I've spot checked the files in File Manager and they are the same images in both locations and they are the same size (e.g. have the same number of bytes). I will also check the file names and extensions. I think I will try deleting some of these files using File Manager and see what happens. (I have lots of dudes I can experiment with).

You really like throwing monkey wrenches into the mix. Earlier you indicated that you did the moves using drag and drop. Please explain where and how you created additional copies at the same time?

My question is not well stated. I just wanted to know if there is something that causes LrC to create copies when dragging and dropping so I could avoid that in the future.
Thank you for all your analysis and help. I think I understand the problem better and will try experimenting in File Manager (without touching the newly created folders and files) to make sure the files are identical and then delete a few and see what happens.

 

[Califdan]

My question is not well stated. I just wanted to know if there is something that causes LrC to create copies when dragging and dropping so I could avoid that in the future.

LrC will general copies of images in only a very few situations.

1. On import if you use one of the "copy" options, LrC makes a copy of the image but leaves the original where it is
2. On import if you select, "Make a second copy to" option
3. If you are doing anything where LrC presents you with an operating sytesm file management screen (Windows File Manager or Mac Finder) you can do all the same things you could with those tools outside of LrC. But, this is not really LrC doing it, it would be you doing it

As far as I know, those are the only situations where LrC can wind up duplicate images. Folders though are a bit different. On import, if you are using "organize by date" it wilol create date folders based on the capture date of the individual images. In addition, if you drag folders using the Folders Panel, and the folder you are draging has sub folders, those subfolders come along with the parent. If you delete or remove a folder that is not empty it will only removed it from the LrC catalog and will not delete it from disk. Remember, there are many things that can be in a folder that LrC does not know about so even if LrC shows zero files that does not necessarily mean it is empty.

On your other question, I do not know how you wound up with duplicate folders and images. However, I have seen something similar that was eventually traced back to some cloud sync program running in the background (I can't recall which one), that noticed that the folder was not there anymore and promptly recovered it from the cloud.