Save as ?

[JohnL]

Hi. I am a complete newbie on this site and have joined because I am looking at trialling L'room and need as much info as I can get before downloading a trial or shelling out any money.
Having looked at numerous sites, read loads and viewed some good videos ie J Kost, I have a question.
When working in the develope mode and you have completed any adjustments you consider necessary to your copy of an image, how do you save it as a copy #2 and how do you save it to replace the original copy? This item is never mentioned in any of the articles I have read or viewed! I do however understand - I think, that the changes are saved as a type of sidecar file. You will probably be aware that I am used to a browser type system.
I am talking copies because I never allow originals out of there download folders.

 

[stasber]

Hi John

First of all, welcome to the site, you're starting on the right foot asking about what's bugging you.

LR works non-destructively, meaning that your original image is left untouched, and, as you mentioned, changes and other data are saved in an accompanying xmp file depending on the file format you work with. So you'll still have your original image without fear of 'replacing' it.

When you come to the end of your editing you simply stop and decide what you want to do next - there is no 'save' function as such. All states and edits are saved the moment they are made, though you can save to xmp either automatically or by Crtl+S (Cmd+S) if you wish to; but LR remembers where you left off.

To revert to original settings, hitting the 'Reset' button on the bottom right corner in Develop, or 'Reset All' in Library's Quick Develop panel, will do that for you.

To make a second version, use Snapshot in Develop. It'll record edits & settings as they are at that point - literally a snapshot right then. You can have as many snapshots as you like and click between them to see them, or mouse over them to preview them in the Navigation thumbnail top left corner.

You can also make Virtual Copies, so that you have multiple copies of the same image, extremely useful in many ways & uses; even to have a copy of each snapshot instead of cycling through them in same image version.

And those can be Stacked if there's too much going on for you on your display (I sometimes have several VCs of one image, gets a bit much with a shoot of 2''+ images).

Just to add - to get your results out of LR you'll need to Export them. Simply going to the folder on your hard drive will give you... your original image.

 

[Brad Snyder]

John, Welcome. I'll expand on two little pieces of Stas' excellent explanation.

The XMP sidecar files are optional. Your adjustment data is always preserved in real-time in the LR catalog. If you choose to save the optional external XMP data, it will be in sidecar files of type *.xmp if your original images are of a raw type. If they're RGB, (e.g. JPG, TIF) the XMP data is embedded in the original image file. (The original pixel data is untouched).

Snapshots and Virtual Copies are extremely memory efficient, because they don't replicate the image pixel data; they simply store the appropriate differential adjustment data, a matter of 2'kB or so compared to the 8+MB original image file.

(Stas, hope you don't mind the addition, I thought these little bits were important enough to add ....)

 

[Kiwigeoff]

John, Welcome. I'll expand on two little pieces of Stas' excellent explanation.

The XMP sidecar files are optional. Your adjustment data is always preserved in real-time in the LR catalog. If you choose to save the optional external XMP data, it will be in sidecar files of type *.xmp if your original images are of a raw type. If they're RGB, (e.g. JPG, TIF) the XMP data is embedded in the original image file. (The original pixel data is untouched).

Snapshots and Virtual Copies are extremely memory efficient, because they don't replicate the image pixel data; they simply store the appropriate differential adjustment data, a matter of 2'kB or so compared to the 8+MB original image file.

(Stas, hope you don't mind the addition, I thought these little bits were important enough to add ....)

VC's do generate another preview though, so there is that consideration - which I have found perfectly acceptable. I use VC's for different versions of the same image as it is so easy to compare them.

 

[stasber]

(Stas, hope you don't mind the addition, I thought these little bits were important enough to add ....)

Not a bother of course, I didn't want to get bogged down in too much detail

If they're RGB, (e.g. JPG, TIF) the XMP data is embedded in the original image file. (The original pixel data is untouched).

And on the topic... or indeed if you convert your RAW files to DNG, which you can do on import. RGB files can also be converted to DNG. So: RAW = sidecar XMP, any other format = embedded XMP.

 

[Sean McCormack]

One thing to note with the above, while the XMP information is embedded in JPG and TIFF, it's not readable by a lot of external programs.
You can render the version by exporting the file, effectively a 'Save As..'

 

[Denis Pagé]

EDIT: Forgot link to Brad's Tip...

When working in the develope mode and you have completed any adjustments you consider necessary to your copy of an image, how do you save it...

May be worth reading this then: Where's the Save Button from Mick Seymour and I am surprised Brad didn't plug is also excellent tip: Where are my Pictures? I think these two are the absolute beginner's first steps.

And we already guess that your next question will be: (rolling drums...)
Why did Lightroom 'ruin' my photo?

At last but not least, WELCOME!

 

[JohnL]

Thanks for the replies and the welcome guys.
Being a browser and app user, LR takes some getting used to as a concept. I presume using the systems will bring more sense to the whys and wherefores.
Reading the pieces and the links - thanks for those links as well, is giving me more of a feel for what is going on but the thought that a well worked and edited image will only reside as an xmp note embedded or as a sidecar seems strange and being reliant on LR for my printing needs when I am used to another app for quite a few years now is also something difficult to grasp.
Does this way of working not tie one into LR in a way which may make moving elsewhere in the future rather problematic?

More info on my flow - raw file and save in 'originals' folder>convert to dng>edit>'save as' a n other file format>file>catalog in 2 places, and copy each file to DVD at some stage.

 

[Denis Pagé]

Does this way of working not tie one into LR in a way which may make moving elsewhere in the future rather problematic?

More info on my flow - raw file and save in 'originals' folder>convert to dng>edit>'save as' a n other file format>file>catalog in 2 places, and copy each file to DVD at some stage.

Well, as you already convert to DNG, the future is wide open. For now, there is just a few apps understanding DNG but as Adobe asked for an ISO classification for it, more and more programs will use it.

To DNG or not DNG is another debate tough...

What is fine with Lightroom is that there is not much need to keep the exported files (what you call "save as") as you can recreate just those needed at the moment. For example, after uploading my JPEGs to a web site, I just delete them to keep space knowing I can easily recreate them should the need arise.

 

[JohnL]

Denis, thanks for that and your . . . the exported files (what you call "save as") . . I presume is LRs way of saying - if you want a hard copy/save as copy then you have to export a copy of it to another place ie a folder on my hard drive, or disc etc.
If I read this correctly your example of a web page set where you delete the 'exported' copies they are still retained in LR as xmp notes on the image file and can be reused again as required?
In my folder system I have a folder called 'Printed' which holds any fully edited images I have printed and it is difficult coming to terms with the fact that in LR my image will be just an xmp note - lol.
The LR library system also has a different strategy. I am not a keyword follower. Keywords are a refining tool to pick out images which I file under categories. However I can see the advantages of the smart collections and am warming to the overall concept of LR.
Please bear with me in this discussion because I am not using LR, only reading the 'how to' pages on numerous sites before I commit myself.
Thanks again - JohnL

 

[Denis Pagé]

Denis, thanks for that and your . . . the exported files (what you call "save as") . . I presume is LRs way of saying - if you want a hard copy/save as copy then you have to export a copy of it to another place ie a folder on my hard drive, or disc etc.
If I read this correctly your example of a web page set where you delete the 'exported' copies they are still retained in LR as xmp notes on the image file and can be reused again as required?
In my folder system I have a folder called 'Printed' which holds any fully edited images I have printed and it is difficult coming to terms with the fact that in LR my image will be just an xmp note - lol.
The LR library system also has a different strategy. I am not a keyword follower. Keywords are a refining tool to pick out images which I file under categories. However I can see the advantages of the smart collections and am warming to the overall concept of LR.
Please bear with me in this discussion because I am not using LR, only reading the 'how to' pages on numerous sites before I commit myself.
Thanks again - JohnL

For some, 3''$ is much and for other it is just a low price. Whatever on which side you stand, you are "better safe than sorry".

As long as we are talking about Lightroom, you are welcome to ask for anything even if you don't own it at the moment... Many knowledgeable peoples here are willing to get you on track.

I see that you are beginning to get the concept. Maybe I can add an hint: When you import photos into Lightroom, they do not go INTO Lightroom! What happens is that Lightroom is keeping a record of where is your original and also keep the information about what you want to do with it.
In fact, it just keep "recipies" you want to apply to them in a database system based on the SQLite database management system.

Also, you can opt to never write those XMP files and just keep the information in the database. But for safety reasons in case of a crash, most do write the XMP info back to the images if they are JPG, TIF or PSD or as standalone *.XMP files if the originals are in a proprietary format like NEF, CR2 or others manufacurer's own format. Your originals never get modified as when an original being JPEG, only the header of the file is updated not the pixel information.

You can save space by not keeping those you printed just by tagging them with a colored frame for example.

Hope this is enlightening, 8)

 

[JohnL]

Thanks again Denis

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Hi John, welcome to the forum!

Of course there's nothing to stop you keep a copy of your fully edited files as you have been doing. I still do keep a 'finished' copy for some jobs, as they're more easily accessible to other people. The point is simply that you don't need to, as you can always 're-cook' a file on demand. You may decide to carry on keeping them for a while until you're really comfortable with LR, and then have a clear-out. It's just nice to have a choice.