Researching use of LrC and Lr offline & with a wired network

[becksnyc]

Lightroom Version

LrC 12.2

Operating System

1. Windows 10
2. Android

All our home networks are wired. No WiFi and also no mobile data access in our rural location.

I do nature photography primarily for species documentation. In LrC, I've created an extensive taxonomical keyword hierarchy. For field identification, I've been exporting published collections from LrC on my Windows PC to Dropbox, then downloading them to my Android devices via ethernet cable or I copy the collections in the Dropbox folder directly onto my devices' SD cards.

I currently import any photos taken on my mobile devices via USB to my PC.

I use F-Stop Gallery on my mobile devices. I don't do ANY editing on the go.

I recently lost access to a family plan that included LrC, have purchased my own plan and now have the Cloud Storage all to myself. Nothing is currently syncing to LR Cloud storage.

Some questions, please?

1. What, if any, advantages or disadvantages are there to using LR Mobile if I don't plan to edit on the go or use the app's camera to take photos?

2. Does Lr Mobile duplicate photos imported from the camera roll, thus doubling the space used by the mobile device?

3. When auto-upload to Adobe cloud storage for the camera roll is enabled, upon sync will LrC recognize photos that were previously imported directly from the mobile device? (most have been renamed on import & edited with LrC on my PC). Or will it download them again, creating duplicates?

4. If I want to delete photos from my camera roll to free up space, does that impact previously downloaded photos in LrC? Other than to replace the full size with a proxy (smart preview) duringon the next sync?

5. Are there any known limitations to using Android's Lr Mobile with an ethernet cable? Some other programs don't work without Wifi in Android, including Android OS updates (incredibly stupid of Android, but I digress...).

6. If I did start editing with Lr, which edits DO NOT transfer with the download from Lr to LrC? I heard keywords don't? Anything else?

7. Can I upload only specific photos from my mobile devices as needed, rather than enabling auto-upload? If so, how is this done, please?

Thanks for any help!

 

[Jim Wilde]

1. The obvious advantage is that you have access to your entire synced library, which means you can do things like organising the library, adding metadata, sharing images or albums via a range of options. Plus ingesting images from other sources, including the phone's camera, for automatic syncing to the cloud library (and then to LrC). But if you don't want or need to do any of that, then you probably don't need to use the app.

2. Initially yes, if auto-import is enabled. Eventually they original copy within LrM will be replaced with a smart preview, but the original image captured from the camera roll is outside LrM's remit, so must be managed by the user. Alternatively, using the LrM camera only creates the one copy within the app, which is synced to the cloud and can thus be replaced with a smart preview (the original is always available to re-download as needed from the cloud).

3. When you enable auto-import, it only imports any pictures added to the camera roll from that point onwards, it does not attempt to import all the existing images in that camera roll.

4. No, as I said LrM has no jurisdiction over the camera roll images. Deleting them has no impact on any copies already imported into LrM.

5. No idea. What would be at the other end of that ethernet cable? If the Android OS can see whatever's at the other end, I would have thought LrM could see it also if it contains images.

6. All edits sync to LrC, but some metadata does not, notably keywords and location data (though GPS coordinates DO sync). Presets also do not sync, so any you add or create in LrM will sync to the cloud (for onward sync to other Lightroom clients), but not on to LrC.

7. Yes. Use the Add Photos icon, select the source, select the images you want to import.

 

[becksnyc]

1. The obvious advantage is that you have access to your entire synced library, which means you can do things like organising the library, adding metadata, sharing images or albums via a range of options. Plus ingesting images from other sources, including the phone's camera, for automatic syncing to the cloud library (and then to LrC). But if you don't want or need to do any of that, then you probably don't need to use the app.

2. Initially yes, if auto-import is enabled. Eventually they original copy within LrM will be replaced with a smart preview, but the original image captured from the camera roll is outside LrM's remit, so must be managed by the user. Alternatively, using the LrM camera only creates the one copy within the app, which is synced to the cloud and can thus be replaced with a smart preview (the original is always available to re-download as needed from the cloud).

3. When you enable auto-import, it only imports any pictures added to the camera roll from that point onwards, it does not attempt to import all the existing images in that camera roll.

4. No, as I said LrM has no jurisdiction over the camera roll images. Deleting them has no impact on any copies already imported into LrM.

5. No idea. What would be at the other end of that ethernet cable? If the Android OS can see whatever's at the other end, I would have thought LrM could see it also if it contains images.

6. All edits sync to LrC, but some metadata does not, notably keywords and location data (though GPS coordinates DO sync). Presets also do not sync, so any you add or create in LrM will sync to the cloud (for onward sync to other Lightroom clients), but not on to LrC.

7. Yes. Use the Add Photos icon, select the source, select the images you want to import.

Regarding:

1. sharing synced images from LrM from my devices. Unless I upload something full size from LrC, this would be a size-limited preview/proxy, correct?

2. Other end of the ethernet cable is the my router. Testing LrM's functionality with the cable will be my first task, since I will be using that way most of the time. I will update here in case anyone else has this rather bizarre question.

Incredibly thorough reply, I thank you very much.

 

[Jim Wilde]

Regarding:

1. sharing synced images from LrM from my devices. Unless I upload something full size from LrC, this would be a size-limited preview/proxy, correct?

2. Other end of the ethernet cable is the my router. Testing LrM's functionality with the cable will be my first task, since I will be using that way most of the time. I will update here in case anyone else has this rather bizarre question.

Incredibly thorough reply, I thank you very much.

1. Correct. Although sharing an image that is based on the smart preview/proxy may often be acceptable, there are also times when the full resolution image is needed (which is why all my images in the cloud are originals). A shared album, even if based on originals, only displays online based on a reduced 2048px preview....so a smart preview would be OK in that situation. But if the user wanted to download images from that shared album, they would only get 2048px jpegs if the cloud files are smart previews, but would get full resolution jpegs if the cloud files are originals

2. That sounds more of a question for the Android phone/OS. If the phone gets internet connected that way, I would think there's no reason why LrM wouldn't be able to use that network attachment.

 

[becksnyc]

1. Correct. Although sharing an image that is based on the smart preview/proxy may often be acceptable, there are also times when the full resolution image is needed (which is why all my images in the cloud are originals). A shared album, even if based on originals, only displays online based on a reduced 2048px preview....so a smart preview would be OK in that situation. But if the user wanted to download images from that shared album, they would only get 2048px jpegs if the cloud files are smart previews, but would get full resolution jpegs if the cloud files are originals

2. That sounds more of a question for the Android phone/OS. If the phone gets internet connected that way, I would think there's no reason why LrM wouldn't be able to use that network attachment.

Thanks again for the help!!!

 

[becksnyc]

One other question, please, how robust is keyword searching and sorting (by keywords) in the synced photos on LrM, please? The app I currently use on my tablet, F-stop Gallery, is tag-centric. Thanks

 

[Jim Wilde]

One other question, please, how robust is keyword searching and sorting (by keywords) in the synced photos on LrM, please? The app I currently use on my tablet, F-stop Gallery, is tag-centric. Thanks

I think it's very robust. Start typing the keyword into the search bar and it will start listing various matching items...the more letters you type, the more refined the list becomes. At the top of the list will always be keywords, below that will be other search items (e.g. captions, titles, locations) that also include the search term somewhere in the image metadata. But as soon as you see the actual keyword that you want to search for, tap on it in the list and it then populates the grid with all matching items.

 

[Jim Wilde]

I think it's very robust. Start typing the keyword into the search bar and it will start listing various matching items...the more letters you type, the more refined the list becomes. At the top of the list will always be keywords, below that will be other search items (e.g. captions, titles, locations) that also include the search term somewhere in the image metadata. But as soon as you see the actual keyword that you want to search for, tap on it in the list and it then populates the grid with all matching items.

Let me clarify that. What I've described is searching the image library for those photos matching a specific keyword. But if what you're asking about is a list of all keywords available, sorted into a specific order, the answer is "not in LrMobile". For that, you'd need to use the Lightroom Desktop app, which does have a list of all active keywords, which is sorted alphanumerically.

 

[David_W]

Testing LrM's functionality with the cable will be my first task, since I will be using that way most of the time. I will update here in case anyone else has this rather bizarre question.

I just tried LrM on my Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra (Android 13, Samsung One UI 5.1 - i.e. up-to-date firmware). The phone recognised it was Ethernet connected, but as soon as I turned off Wi-Fi and Mobile Data, LrM complained of "No network connection".

As you have said, Android is typically not that good at using wired Ethernet connections.

You seem firm in your resolve not to use Wi-Fi, so it is hard to see a way out. You are aware, I presume, that you don't have to use a Wi-Fi router - you can connect a Wi-Fi access point to your existing wired network.

 

[becksnyc]

I just tried LrM on my Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra (Android 13, Samsung One UI 5.1 - i.e. up-to-date firmware). The phone recognised it was Ethernet connected, but as soon as I turned off Wi-Fi and Mobile Data, LrM complained of "No network connection".

As you have said, Android is typically not that good at using wired Ethernet connections.

You seem firm in your resolve not to use Wi-Fi, so it is hard to see a way out. You are aware, I presume, that you don't have to use a Wi-Fi router - you can connect a Wi-Fi access point to your existing wired network.

Thanks for your input. My device is working fine with the the wired ethernet connection using LrC & LrM.
My "resolve" is connected to a family member's heart problem, which close proximity to wireless devices exacerbates. So a Wi-Fi access point is, well, a moot point. (pun intended)

 

[becksnyc]

Let me clarify that. What I've described is searching the image library for those photos matching a specific keyword. But if what you're asking about is a list of all keywords available, sorted into a specific order, the answer is "not in LrMobile". For that, you'd need to use the Lightroom Desktop app, which does have a list of all active keywords, which is sorted alphanumerically.

Thank you, Jim. I'm just getting around to working with the synced collections on LrM. Searching should be sufficient on mobile, most of my organizing is done on my desktop.

 

[David_W]

Thanks for your input. My device is working fine with the the wired ethernet connection using LrC & LrM.
My "resolve" is connected to a family member's heart problem, which close proximity to wireless devices exacerbates. So a Wi-Fi access point is, well, a moot point. (pun intended)

I am pleased it is working for you. My intention was just to provide a data point for you. The Android device OEMs and application authors are not the best at supporting wired Ethernet, especially as there are few if any Android devices with wired Ethernet built in.

I would be curious to know what Android device(s) you get working with LrM using Ethernet.

I fully understand and respect the reasons behind your decision. Until your reply, I was not clear whether it was a technical reason as to why you had not deployed Wi-Fi (such as an Internet connectivity reason that does not provide Wi-Fi) or a reason unconnected to a technological limitation. Clearly, in your situation, the use of Wi-Fi is inappropriate.

 

[becksnyc]

I am pleased it is working for you. My intention was just to provide a data point for you. The Android device OEMs and application authors are not the best at supporting wired Ethernet, especially as there are few if any Android devices with wired Ethernet built in.

I would be curious to know what Android device(s) you get working with LrM using Ethernet.

I fully understand and respect the reasons behind your decision. Until your reply, I was not clear whether it was a technical reason as to why you had not deployed Wi-Fi (such as an Internet connectivity reason that does not provide Wi-Fi) or a reason unconnected to a technological limitation. Clearly, in your situation, the use of Wi-Fi is inappropriate.

Galaxy Note 8 phone (SM-N950U) is working fine.
I have 3 other Android devices, and plan to use at least one of my tablets with LrM. I will add the working models to this thread, or mention if they don't work, for future reference.
Thanks!

 

[becksnyc]

As a final comment on my experience with LrC to LrM (Android):
I would NEVER have used the cloud sync from LrC to LrM if I had known the photos were stored WITHIN the database and cannot be accessed by other apps. This is not true of the desktop version, so I didn't even think to ask.
Now, if I wish to use other apps, I have to export from LrM first. I can't use other gallery apps (F-stop has much more powerful keyword filters), add proprietary filters from other apps & so on. Having my collections accessible to those apps would mean creating published folders for everything that I sync, and would double the space required.
I would love to know why mobile is designed to store the smart previews within the database, whereas other versions of LR only store editing info.
Thanks

 

[Jim Wilde]

I would love to know why mobile is designed to store the smart previews within the database, whereas other versions of LR only store editing info.

LrM stores both originals and smart previews within the allocated app space on the mobile device. Where else would you expect that data to be stored?

 

[clee01l]

…
Now, if I wish to use other apps, I have to export from LrM first. I can't use other gallery apps (F-stop has much more powerful keyword filters), add proprietary filters from other apps & so on.

Lightroom Classic has only unedited Originals stored locally. You should never access these outside of LrC. You should use an Exported image with edit adjustment if you want to share with another app. Trying to share originals stored locally by LrC is asking for trouble.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[becksnyc]

LrM stores both originals and smart previews within the allocated app space on the mobile device. Where else would you expect that data to be stored?

I'm sorry, I read on this forum that the photos were stored INSIDE the database and were not accessible to the user except WITHIN the app. Is this true, please? If not, can you please tell me where to access the photos on an Android device? Thanks

 

[becksnyc]

Lightroom Classic has only unedited Originals stored locally. You should never access these outside of LrC. You should use an Exported image with edit adjustment if you want to share with another app. Trying to share originals stored locally by LrC is asking for trouble.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes, Sir, I only access my LrC photos within the program. I don't use any other programs for editing or organization on my PC. However, when I sync a my numerous collections to my mobile device, I do so to use them as field reference for species ID. F-stop gallery has better searches & organization by keywords. When I published (instead of syncing) my collections, F-stop let me keep my nested folder structure, which is great for taxonomical searching. The endless list of collections in LrM with no way to organize other than alphabetical, also not working for me. I assumed I would be able to access the photos with other apps. I have not ascertained how to do so.

 

[Jim Wilde]

I'm sorry, I read on this forum that the photos were stored INSIDE the database and were not accessible to the user except WITHIN the app. Is this true, please? If not, can you please tell me where to access the photos on an Android device? Thanks

Is it true? Basically yes, though it depends on what you mean by the term "Database". If you think of that as being a single file, like LrC's catalog, then you'd probably be wrong. Without knowing in detail the organisation and structure of the various data elements that need to be stored on the mobile device, it appears to be similar to the way the the Lightroom desktop app stores its data, i.e. a series of specific sub-folders and files all contained within a single "package". You can use the "Files" app on Android to drill down into that organisational structure it you want to see how some of it all hangs together (but I sense that some things remain hidden). However, the important thing is that, like LrC, if you want to share your image files (including edits and metadata) with other apps you first need to publish those images to an area available to those other apps, e.g. the gallery (Android) or the camera roll (iOS). Some apps you can publish directly to (e.g. mail, messaging, social media, etc.), but the underlying process is the same, a derivative of the images is exported from the LrM app. But if you assumed that your other apps could directly access the original images in LrM, then I think you assumed incorrectly.

 

[becksnyc]

I think it's very robust. Start typing the keyword into the search bar and it will start listing various matching items...the more letters you type, the more refined the list becomes. At the top of the list will always be keywords, below that will be other search items (e.g. captions, titles, locations) that also include the search term somewhere in the image metadata. But as soon as you see the actual keyword that you want to search for, tap on it in the list and it then populates the grid with all matching items.

The death knell has rung for my use of the Lightroom Mobile app!
When I tried to search my collections in a location without cell service, all of which are "stored locally," it says "Cannot Search...Search only works when online. Make sure your device is connected to the internet."
Why would they offer to store photos locally, but not enable a keyword search of the locally stored photos?!
I really appreciate the kind and patient help given me in this thread. I am hugely disappointed that LrM isn't fully functional without internet service. Working with nature in remote locations wasn't on the developers' priority list, methinks. What a world.

 

[becksnyc]

Is it true? Basically yes, though it depends on what you mean by the term "Database". If you think of that as being a single file, like LrC's catalog, then you'd probably be wrong. Without knowing in detail the organisation and structure of the various data elements that need to be stored on the mobile device, it appears to be similar to the way the the Lightroom desktop app stores its data, i.e. a series of specific sub-folders and files all contained within a single "package". You can use the "Files" app on Android to drill down into that organisational structure it you want to see how some of it all hangs together (but I sense that some things remain hidden). However, the important thing is that, like LrC, if you want to share your image files (including edits and metadata) with other apps you first need to publish those images to an area available to those other apps, e.g. the gallery (Android) or the camera roll (iOS). Some apps you can publish directly to (e.g. mail, messaging, social media, etc.), but the underlying process is the same, a derivative of the images is exported from the LrM app. But if you assumed that your other apps could directly access the original images in LrM, then I think you assumed incorrectly.

Thank you Jim for your clear explanation.
As they say, you don't know what you don't know. I've spent nearly a month setting up collections of thousands of species categories, only to find that LrM doesn't suit my needs for field work.
I hope this thread is of use to others with similar needs, though I realize that they are unique. I will now try Jeffrey Friedl's Collection Publisher plugin with Dropbox.
I'm grateful for this forum & the kind help found here.

 

[Jim Wilde]

Why would they offer to store photos locally, but not enable a keyword search of the locally stored photos?!

Whether the images are stored locally or not is pretty irrelevant....cloud-centric Lightroom primarily stores (and accesses) the image metadata in the cloud catalog, with some of that metadata also stored in the local catalog. However, because a lot of the cloud search function is AI-powered, Adobe has decided that the search function will only be processed on the cloud servers. Thus it cannot be used when offline. However, the library "Filter" function is supposed to be run against the local catalog, so can be used when offline. That is certainly the case when using the Lightroom desktop app, but surprisingly (to me at least) not all of the filter options are available in LrMobile when the device is offline....certainly the Keyword filter does work offline, but the Location filter doesn't. As I said, that surprises me, so I'll see if I can get an explanation from Adobe.

 

[becksnyc]

Whether the images are stored locally or not is pretty irrelevant....cloud-centric Lightroom primarily stores (and accesses) the image metadata in the cloud catalog, with some of that metadata also stored in the local catalog. However, because a lot of the cloud search function is AI-powered, Adobe has decided that the search function will only be processed on the cloud servers. Thus it cannot be used when offline. However, the library "Filter" function is supposed to be run against the local catalog, so can be used when offline. That is certainly the case when using the Lightroom desktop app, but surprisingly (to me at least) not all of the filter options are available in LrMobile when the device is offline....certainly the Keyword filter does work offline, but the Location filter doesn't. As I said, that surprises me, so I'll see if I can get an explanation from Adobe.

Thank you for drawing my attention to the "filter" function. However, it is not user-friendly. I have thousands of keywords, which would require endless scrolling. My app doesn't even have a way to enter a few letters to narrow down the filtering process. Useless when you are searching for a particular species by name among several thousand photos with nested keywords (nested within LrC, anyway).

 

[David_W]

It seems that perhaps nothing other than LrC will satisfy your requirements, @becksnyc. I find the cloud useful:

• for a quick "in the field" development of a Raw photo on my phone
• as a platform for culling, rating and flagging "in the field"
• to synchronise files back to LrC
• to synchronise 'finished' photos from LrC for display on a mobile device

I do intend to experiment with some of the other cloud features, such as the link to Portfolio.

However, the cloud workflow annoys me because it is different to what I know and, in some ways, is less powerful especially if you do not have a good Internet connection at any given time. As a matter of balance, I note that some features are only found in the cloud ecosystem.

I have used Lightroom since version 3. I am used to the features of Classic and the extensive set of plugins I use. I am happy with using non-cloud storage. My way of navigating this compromise is to own a Surface Pro, which is a Windows 11 machine that will run Lightroom Classic, the desktop Lightroom cloud application, Photoshop and Bridge in a tablet form factor.

 

[becksnyc]

It seems that perhaps nothing other than LrC will satisfy your requirements, @becksnyc. I find the cloud useful:

• for a quick "in the field" development of a Raw photo on my phone
• as a platform for culling, rating and flagging "in the field"
• to synchronise files back to LrC
• to synchronise 'finished' photos from LrC for display on a mobile device

I do intend to experiment with some of the other cloud features, such as the link to Portfolio.

However, the cloud workflow annoys me because it is different to what I know and, in some ways, is less powerful especially if you do not have a good Internet connection at any given time. As a matter of balance, I note that some features are only found in the cloud ecosystem.

I have used Lightroom since version 3. I am used to the features of Classic and the extensive set of plugins I use. I am happy with using non-cloud storage. My way of navigating this compromise is to own a Surface Pro, which is a Windows 11 machine that will run Lightroom Classic, the desktop Lightroom cloud application, Photoshop and Bridge in a tablet form factor.

I take the vast majority of my species photos on my Canon EOS camera, which doesn't have wireless capabilities to share with a mobile device. I rarely take photos with my phone. So basically I am basically a LrC user (since version 4) that wants to use 'finished' photos as a reference tool on my mobile devices. For reasons mentioned above, I am wired at home but in a region where cellular is very unreliable.
That's an interesting setup you have with your Surface Pro!