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Develop module raw vs dng

Spiderbob

New Member
Premium Classic Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
6
Location
Kennewick, WA
Lightroom Experience
Advanced
Lightroom Version
Classic
Lightroom Version Number
13.2
Operating System
  1. macOS 14 Sonoma
So when using the "ENHANCED" button and you like what you see and then save it, why does it change the .raw file to a .dng file. I prefer to keep them all the same in my library. Is there a way the .dng presets can be changed to always save in a .raw and/or .jpl file?
 
It does not 'change the raw file to a DNG file'. It creates a new DNG file because the process also 'demosaices' the raw data and that means the result cannot be saved into the original raw file even if Adobe wanted it. The original raw file remains untouched (but by default it is hidden in a stack with the DNG file).
 
A RAW file does not contain an image. It only has the recorded information from the sensor. It has to go through a converter to an image in order to be edited. This happens internally within LrC.

Now, just before you say "But I can see my RAW file in Finder", that is because camera manufacturers embed one or more JPG files that can be used to present a preview of the file. Internally a camera always converts the RAW image to a temporary JPG to display the photo on the screen and drive the histogram.
 
OK, yes my mistake as it creates a separate file. I'll have to look at my camera again, as I have it set to only produce raw files. But besides that, your saying that I cannot change the created dng file to a raw file? I didn't plan on keeping the original raw file after using the Enhancement, what for? but I noticed I can change the dng manually to a raw, but is all the original information still going to be with this new file?

What I'm trying to get at, is to keep the order of raw files when I put the dng file back into my raw file folder it is no longer in order.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DemosaicingBut besides that, your saying that I cannot change the created dng file to a raw file?
The RAW file produced by your camera ia not an RGB image, The camera sensor records a series of photo site light values that are simply a measurement to the Light striking that Photosite.. The image that you see in the camera back and thumbnail is a JPEG created from the conversion of the Photosite values into RGB pixels using the tiny processing engine in the camera.

The you import a RAW file into Lightroom, Lightroom uses a version of Adobe Camera RAW to convert the RAW photo site values into red, green and blue pixels. Some tone sharpening and some noise reduction is applied automatically so thither the image presented in Lightroom is vue-able to a human. The deNoise process added in recent versions of Lightroom use AI to further reduce the noise inherent in all camera images. This intermediate file is a derivative of the original and is saved as a DNG file type. Super resolution, HDR composites and panoramas created by Lightroom are also intermediate derivatives and save in the DNG file type.

You want to keep your original (RAW) file as it is the digital equivalent of a film negative. You can always re create any intermediate derivative From the original.

Once a file has been converted to RGB pixels there is no process that exists to create the original photo site values from the RGB pixels.

A google search will go into more detail on how RAW photo site values are used to create Red, Green or blue pixels in an RGB image. Search on the Demosiac process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing
 
OK, yes my mistake as it creates a separate file.
Yes , this is a new file, think of it as a first step in processing the original raw
but I noticed I can change the dng manually to a raw, but is all the original information still going to be with this new file?
Where did you get this information from? The new .dng carries all the photo information along with it that you need for further processing, like tonal controls, etc.
What I'm trying to get at, is to keep the order of raw files when I put the dng file back into my raw file folder it is no longer in order.
Perhaps this is where some of the confusion comes from. What is "the order of the raw files" that you are referring to? Is this the sequence number, perhaps attached to the file name that you created when you imported them ?
Here is a screen shot of a raw file and a .dng from enhanced NR ( after a crop) next to one another in a LRC grid view when I sort the photos by capture time. They are next to one another, or "in order". The Enhanced NR "puts the file " back in the original folder where the raw is.
1715749060767.png

If I look on the hard drive with (in my case on a pc) Windows file explorer, they may not be "next to one another" as they were created at different times, though I could also sort the view by file names. Later, I might send this enhanced file through Topaz Photo and get a tiff back which would also appear in this sequence on LRC.
 
OK, so that pretty much explains it for me. What I've read from you all is, I can put it in sequential order (per my original raw file) but it will also carry the dng file with it in the same sequential order as original.
I am moving toward the fact here that I need to change my file system. I have just over 16,000 raw files with original sequential file number from the last, maybe 15 - 20 years. The computer or maybe the LRC software also gives a date along with the file. When I need to find a file I look more for the date and then start searching from there. I think I always knew I was going about this wrong and I was hoping I could just continual my method. It all changed when Light Room added the "Enhancement" feature. LOL. I signed up for the lectures being given soon. I'll start learning the proper way to file at that time. I won't change what I've been doing but I will establish a more refined way perhaps.
Thank you for you explanations and your time.
Bob
 
The denoised DNG file that is created next to the raw file can have the exact same name as the raw file, because it has a different file extension. Lightroom adds ‘Enhanced-NR’ to the original name, but you could remove that if you want to. Right now you’d have to do that manually, but hopefully one day Lightroom will allow you to do that by default. This is a ‘hot’ feature request at the Adobe Community forums.
 
OK, so that pretty much explains it for me. What I've read from you all is, I can put it in sequential order (per my original raw file) but it will also carry the dng file with it in the same sequential order as original.
I am moving toward the fact here that I need to change my file system. I have just over 16,000 raw files with original sequential file number from the last, maybe 15 - 20 years.
You should not be trying to manage image in the file system. The Filesystem has not order. The files are not written out in any order . In fact, a singes file make be written in many uncontiguous block on the drive. It is recommended by me and many others that you organize and manage your image files using Lightroom keywords and Collections. Lightroom does not care about the name of a file. Why should you? File Name is just another piece of metadata contained in the file header.

If you want all of your RAW files in a single collection and your intermediate files in another, you can create those collections and manage each collection separately. Smart Collections will do this for you automatically. If you want to find a file shot 15-20 years ago, you can always search by capture date.

To make more room in the left panel for Collections, I keep the Folder panel hidden. If I want to find a file shot on May 15th, 2008, I can search by Capture Date. If I want to find all of the photos of Sharks, I can search on the "Shark" keyword. I think you waste a lot of time trying to keep a unique sequential file name.
 
I'll have to look at my camera again, as I have it set to only produce raw files.
No need to check your camera if you are only saving RAW to the SD card. The internal JPG's are not save or seen except for displaying the photo on your screen and showing you this histogram. That JPG is internal to the camera.
but I noticed I can change the dng manually to a raw
You can't if you just rename it, it's still a DNG as mentioned by someone else. Why would you want to take an image file and convert it to the recording of sensor information which is not an image?
I am moving toward the fact here that I need to change my file system. I have just over 16,000 raw files with original sequential file number from the last, maybe 15 - 20 years. The computer or maybe the LRC software also gives a date along with the file. When I need to find a file I look more for the date and then start searching from there. I think I always knew I was going about this wrong and I was hoping I could just continual my method.
Everyone has their own way of naming. Mine is YYYYMMDD-HHMMSS.NEF. Here's an article on batch renaming files already in LrC in case you are interested.

But you also bring up the point of the information that LrC holds, which includes metadata, which is one of the features of Library which makes it easy to find photos IF you update your photos. Here's an article on batch updating metadata in LrC.

Also remember that a lot of the LrC features, like Enhance, create a stack of the of the original RAW file and the DNG. This is also true of some plug-ins, like PhotoShop, that you can launch from LrC.
 
a lot of the LrC features, like Enhance, create a stack of the of the original RAW file and the DNG.
You can turn off the automatic stacking and the derivative file is shown alongside the original and not stacked on top of it.
 
So much information just on file storage to take in. I remember years ago thinking I should really learn more about the file system. I only wish I had. I find myself looking for a picture that I remember has an approximate date, and I would and still do look for hours sometime. I have to change this. Too late for the past, but from now on I need to do this with consistence in a correct manor. But first, time to start listening and applying what I learn.
 
. Too late for the past, but from now on I need to do this with consistence in a correct manor. But first, time to start listening and applying what I learn.
It is not too late.
Start with the Key Words that Cletus mentioned above. Develop an outline of a good keyword system that suits how you think and what you shoot.
I would recommend that you then work backwards in time, starting with the most recently shot photos, and assign keywords to each photo or group of photos. If you have rated your photos with stars (eg, good, better, best) start with the best ones as well.
In other words, bite off small chunks and you will be surprised at how fast it will go.
 
You can turn off the automatic stacking and the derivative file is shown alongside the original and not stacked on top of it.
Thanks Cletus. I didn't know that but personally find working with a stack, with the latest derivative on top, helps me know which file to change. That applies to stacks for HDR and PANO as well.
 
So much information just on file storage to take in. I remember years ago thinking I should really learn more about the file system.

Why? Whether your use a Mac or a Windows system, the file system is just the way to organize, store and retrieve files, regardless of file type. Lightroom deals with only a few file types. And ultimately, it is agnostic as to how you organize files, as others have pointed out in this thread and countless other threads on this forum.

The important bit is that you have a logical system for organizing photo files, that can be set into Lightroom. For many people, a date-based system is preferred for its simplicity.
I only wish I had. I find myself looking for a picture that I remember has an approximate date, and I would and still do look for hours sometime. I have to change this. Too late for the past,
Not necessarily, Go back to those images and apply appropriate keywords.

It IS important to have a logical system for creating keywords, that is "extensible," therefore hierarchical. For example, if you do a lot of travel photography, you can create keywords based on country, state/region/province, city, etc. Using this example, you can start with only a few US states, but add more as needed.

But first, time to start listening and applying what I learn.

Do backups if necessary, so if you go down a dead end, you can always restore the catalog from before you started to go down this path.
 
I have started the process of adding keywords, I feel that is the smart way to go at least for me. I've already decided to leave the date structure I already have on my computer. I'll try it with a workable amount of photos, then see how it works out after saving and retrieving. It's going to take sometime regardless.
 
I have started the process of adding keywords
Personally, I find other metadata information like Title, Caption and Location useful. I will not remember a time period but will remember where I feel I remember taking a picture.

Another approach I've used, and it comes down to how you cull your images, is to only focus on the metadata for those I've identified as Signiant to me e.g. rating. I mention this to help reduce going back on older pictures or at the very least allow you to do passes.

Also don't forget about the ability of cut/paste metadata across multiple photos to reduce typing time on similar pictures.
 
Personally, I find other metadata information like Title, Caption and Location useful. I will not remember a time period but will remember where I feel I remember taking a picture.

Another approach I've used, and it comes down to how you cull your images, is to only focus on the metadata for those I've identified as Signiant to me e.g. rating. I mention this to help reduce going back on older pictures or at the very least allow you to do passes.

Also don't forget about the ability of cut/paste metadata across multiple photos to reduce typing time on similar pictures.
Thank you, good info
 
Filles and images are 2 different things. Images are like a liquid, you can't manipulate them (ie store, move, etc). They need to be in a container (like a bottle for a liquid) in order to be manipulated.
The file system of a computer manipulates files. Therefore a file is the container in which the image, (or the sensor data in case of RAW) is put.
When creating the file, the file system store a creation date in the metadata of the file. When creating the image (or the RAW data), the camera store usualy store the date/time in the camera at the moment the image was shot in the metadata of the image. This is the capture date.
Therefore, creation date and capture date are 2 different things. They can be identical (when the file system of the camera create the file to store the image) but they can be different if a new file is created by the software to store the image. It's like for a liquid, the information on the container (the tag on the bottle) can give a wrong description of what the content (the liquid) reallly is.
That's why the creation date is not reliable to identify when the image was taken.
Like for a liquid, as photograph we care about the content (the image), not about the container (the file). It's exactly how LrC works. It needs to know where the file is in roder to get the image. Then it don't care about the files and manipulates and classify the images only, thru collections, keywords, etc.
 
When creating the file, the file system store a creation date in the metadata of the file.
Unfortunately, this is not always true. Also, the file dates (create and modified) are modified by the file system. The 'metadata' in the image must be done by the tool which has knowledge of all the different metadata schemas (XMP, EXIF,IPTC, Camera Manufacturer (MAKER) ). For example, some older cell phone cameras did not record the capture time in the metadata. I know this because I rename my files, using EXIFTOOL, based on the capture date in the metadata. This failed with some older cell phone cameras after the files had been downloaded to Windows because no capture date was found

Agree, capture date and create date can be different but are also stored in differently in the file header for the OS and metadata for the image/raw.
 
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