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Organisation advice required

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AdeC

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Joined
Dec 11, 2013
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30
Location
Bedford UK
Lightroom Experience
Intermediate
Lightroom Version
Hi I am starting a new library from scratch and would like some advice please.
I shoot in RAW and make 1 copy in jpg for posting on a web page & 1 tif which I keep in a folder.
both of these are edited versions.
i have an external HD where I have a folder Titled BIRDS and within this there are folders for each species ie BULLFINCH,BLACKBIRD etc.and within each species folder there are folders for RAW,TIF,JPG versions.The tif & jpg' s are edited versions and the RAW is obviously as is.
I would like to know how to create this system within lightroom and is it really worth keeping both
jpg & tiff versions or best to keep just RAW & jpg.
I intend keeping all on the same external HD.
I hope this makes some sense and that someone can give some advice.

adrian
 
Hi I am starting a new library from scratch and would like some advice please.
I shoot in RAW and make 1 copy in jpg for posting on a web page & 1 tif which I keep in a folder.
both of these are edited versions.
i have an external HD where I have a folder Titled BIRDS and within this there are folders for each species ie BULLFINCH,BLACKBIRD etc.and within each species folder there are folders for RAW,TIF,JPG versions.The tif & jpg' s are edited versions and the RAW is obviously as is.
I would like to know how to create this system within lightroom and is it really worth keeping both
jpg & tiff versions or best to keep just RAW & jpg.
I intend keeping all on the same external HD.
I hope this makes some sense and that someone can give some advice.

adrian
Your folder structure sounds pretty much like a Keyword hierarchy. You need a keyword hierarchy, you don't need to manually collect images into folders. Any folder structure will do and LR import offers several date based folder schemes that mar the import process speedy and efficient. Don't worry about folder structures and complex folder naming schemes.
Do spend lots of your up front time insuring that every image will have useful keywords:
A typical Keyword hierarchy:
Bird
.....Bullfinch
.....Blackbird
.....Ibis
..........Glossy
..........White
United Kingdom
.....England
..........Bedfordshire
...............Bedford
.....Wales
Assigning the keyword "Blackbird" will automatically assign "Bird" And assigning "Bedford" will also assign United Kingdom, England, and Bedfordshire.
Now you can create a Smart Collection to automatically populate with every image that has been assigned the keywords "Bullfinch" & "United Kingdom" All you need to do is assign the proper keywords. If you have a photo with Bullfinches and Blackbirds, LR will assign the same image to both the "Bullfinch" Smart Collection and the "Blackbird" Smart Collection. You can't do that with folders since you filesystem will not let you put a single image in more than one folder at a time.

If you shoot RAW, the Original is the only file that you need. All adjustments that make a Web JPEG or a TIFF. are maintained in the catalog. Any time you need a new copy of the Web JPEG or the TIFF you export a new copy to the destination (website) or where ever. No need to keep a copy locally.

So to summarize:
  • Import efficiently and quickly using one of the date named folder schemes.
  • If possible assign universally applied keywords on import.
  • Assign meaningful keywords to every image
  • Create Smart Collections to "bucket" your images automatically
  • Use a Publish Service to export to the web social sites.
  • Export only those files that have a purpose out side of LR.
 
Just one thing to add to that, concerning Tiffs.....if these have been created by using the "Edit in Photoshop" process, it's likely that the Tiff could/should now be regarded as the "master" file, i.e. it's the version that will be published/exported/printed. In that scenario, I would retain both the original Raw file AND the Tiff derivative in my catalog, suitably stacked.
 
Hi
The tiffs & jpg have been created in Canons Dpp. I would do a conversion either singley or sometimes batch and create a tiff & jpg at the same time then edit them and post the jpg on the site and keep the tif version.
 
Hi Adrian, pleased to make your acquaintance.

Reading your entry my first thought is that Lightroom whole design rationale was to enable one to avoid organising images in the way that you are currently doing.
It is true that it is possible to exactly translate the current organisational structure into Lightroom but I would strongly advise you to consider a completely different paradigm.

From what you have written it appears that folders are your primary means of organisation.
Perhaps, in your photographic genre, it is possible to get away with it.
Maybe every image that you have ever shot only has one bird of one species and nothing else of interest and so sticking an image of a particular bird species in its concomitant folder works.
However this style of organisation breaks down as soon as a single image needs to be put into more than one folder.
Another problem is that if an image is misplaced it may be difficult to find it again and put it where it needs to be.

Lightroom, on the other hand, is designed to use metadata, including keywords, as the primary mode of organizing images.
I too, do a lot of bird photography, and every image is keyworded with the species of bird (amongst a lot of other keywords) and so I can instantly find any image that I have ever shot of an African Fish Eagle, Laughing Kookaburra, Palm Cockatoo, or whatever.
If I want more permanent collections I create smart collections with appropriate inclusion criteria and whenever an image is keyworded with the appropriate keyword that image is automatically included in the collection - hence the 'Smart' collection.
Very complex search criteria can be incorporated into these Smart collections.

Another very important design philosophy for Lightroom was to eliminate the need for a profusion of derivative files.
You appear to be keeping both TIFF's and JPEG's.
My strong suggestion is that nearly all the time you need neither.
Lightroom has the capability of creating virtual copies that allow allow very different develop module treatments of the same base RAW file as well as the ability to create multiple softproofing copies of a particular master image as well as multiple print copies of a particular master image.
The idea is that if a derivative copy of a master image is required - say for the web - one create's it but it is not necessary to otherwise keep the derivative JPEG in one's collection since the master is still available to make another derivative at any time should it be required.
Publish Services is another option to explore.

I do have TIFF files as masters in my catalog but these are there only because I had to create them e.g. 32-bit TIFF files from merge to HDR treatment.
It is very rare for me to have any JPEG's in my catalog as master images unless they are the only surviving images (early on in my photographic career I shot JPEG and not RAW).

Basically, my reply to your query is not a full and final answer to your question.
Instead I have offered you a completely different way of approaching image organisation that actually uses the design strengths of Lightroom rather than working at cross-purposes with it.
If you wish to explore these options further I can certainly help guide as well as give you links to many resources that will expand on the simple summary statements that I have given so far.

Look forward to hearing from you!

Tony Jay
 
Last edited:
Hi Tony,
many thanks for the advice and I would be glad of further advice etc. I am trying to get an organised system form the start so any advice you can give will be very much appreciated

adrian
 
Hi Tony,
many thanks for the advice and I would be glad of further advice etc. I am trying to get an organised system form the start so any advice you can give will be very much appreciated

adrian

Adrian,

Regardless of how you wish to proceed, I suggest playing with your preferred method with a handful of images before tackling all of them. I spent quite some time playing around before I found what worked best for me (e.g. naming, file structure, back ups, etc.), and I would not have wanted to make significant adjustments once out of the gate. Take your time and test to see if things work as expected. We see a number of posts from folks who are not happy with their methodology, and it tends to be much harder to make significant changes later on.

Good luck,

--Ken
 
Hi again Adrian.

You have received a lot of very useful information from all the responses posted already.

To enlarge on Ken's suggestion create a TEST catalog and import only a few RAW images - say from one folder currently on your hard drive.
Even 5-10 images is more than enough for the purposes of experimentation.

One of the decisions you will need to make is how to keyword and the biggest decision is whether to go for a hierarchical or flat keyword list.

In your case I would plump for hierarchical because it fits very neatly with the biological taxonomic classification of bird species.
I have nearly every bird species on the planet contained in my keyword list (amongst an enormous list of other keywords) arranged according to biological groups.
The ability to use synonyms means that 'birds' as a group also has 'aves' listed as a synonym.
Every species is listed primarily with its usual English name but has the latin name listed as a synonym and also alternative names.
The hierarchy is constructed in a way that makes keywording easy for several reasons:
1. Species are listed as English names and not Latin names.
2. If you are not sure of the species but know for certain that the species is a duck or a parrot or a finch or whatever it is possible to keyword to the level of accuracy that you are sure of. LAter on, once you know for sure what the species is because you have researched it then just add the appropriate keyword.
3. Add keywords from the list.
4. If you are adding a new species of bird (or animal, or whatever) as a keyword place it in its correct place in the hierarchy. Then when that keyword is applied all the parent keywords will automatically be added.
(It is true that keywords can be dragged-and-dropped in keyword hierarchies and Lightroom will automatically update the associations but animal and bird taxonimies are complex and a misplaced keyword may never be subsequently placed correctly so it is better to get it rigth first time.)
5. You do not have to have a complete hierarchy before it can be used - get the top levels done and then add the lower levels when required.

I need to go - but I will be back to explain more - either in a new post or an edit of this one!

Tony Jay
 
You need to put aside the word "organise" - it means too many different things - and consider how Lightroom enables more flexible practices:

- Folders are for storage, ensuring your pictures are safe, all backed up and easy to fully restore after a catastrophe - they're not well-suited to categorising pictures
- Categorise your pictures with keywords and other metadata - categorising and finding pictures is the job they do best
- Collections are for grouping and making use of your pictures, things like preparing a slideshow or a book, or managing a shoot as you work through adjusting and adding metadata

Where you've already established a categorised folder structure, as you describe, I generally recommend leaving it alone for now. So

- Import those folders into LR using the "Add" option in the Import dialog - this means you'll see the folders in LR
- New work should come into a folder structure that's date-based and where your main consideration is the pictures' physical safekeeping.
- Tag new pictures properly with keywords and other metadata
- For older pictures, adopt an ad hoc approach to adding keywords and other metadata. So when you tag some new pictures with Hooper Swan or Mute Swan, that's the time to go to your old folders and mark up those pictures. You don't have to go back keywording all the older pictures in one big hit.
- Look for pictures by using metadata - the library filter, smart collections - and not by folders.

There's always a danger of over-analysis or letting the apparent size of the task prevent you from starting it, so hope that helps. It's very much in tune with what others have said.

John
 
Hi Adrian

(I have answered your email in the thread, because, amongst other things it is to large to post as an email - I hope this is OK)

For the moment don't worry about trying to change any folders or what is in them.
A keyword hierarchy is what you need.
Although one can purchase keyword lists IMHO anyway it is much the better to construct one yourself.
The reason why is that only you know how detailed your hierarchy needs to be.
My keyword list is 44 000 keywords (and still growing) but it is possible that for your purposes it is way overkill.
It is also possible that it is not detailed and comprehensive enough for you.

I seem to recall suggesting creating a TEST catalog and importing only a few images into it.
Use this catalog to get to learn how to build your keyword list.
Create a few keywords, get familiar with the options regarding creating non-exportable keywords, child or nested keywords.
Apply some of these keywords to a couple of images and see how they behave.
The 'Keywording' sub panel has a drop down menu called 'Keyword tags'.
Check the options 'Keywords & Containing Keywords' and then 'Will Export' and see what happens to the listed keywords.
One option gives you all the keywords of the whole hierarchy while the other will only show exportable keywords.

I use non-exportable keywords a lot to organise my keyword hierarchy.
I capitalise these keywords so it is clear what there role is.
For example I have a top-level keyword called 'ANIMALS'.
This is a non-exprotable keyword and functions as a container for the next level of keywords which happen to be 'vertebrates' and 'invertebrates and then inside 'vertebrates' are found 'birds', mammals, 'reptiles', 'fish'.
Birds are classified as 'passerines' and 'non-passerines' and so it goes.

I also use non-exportable keywords to further organise myself inside complicated taxonomic hierarchies like my botanical keyword hierarchy so words such as 'CLADE' and 'FAMILY' are present in multiple places to aid my understanding.

In the biological taxonomies I will use combinations of English and Latin terms as primary keywords.
Synonyms are very useful, so for example the latin term 'chordata' is used as a synonym of the keyword 'vertebrates'.
At a species level I use the most widely accepted English name and the Latin species name is included as a synonym.

You seem to like birds so I would investigate the taxonomic classification of birds and use the experience of creating a keyword hierarchy of birds as a learning experience that can be applied to all the other hierarchies you will need to create.
I may have mentioned already that it is not necessary to have a complete hierarchy before it becomes very useful.
Again, as an example, I have a hierarchy called 'WORLD LOCATION'.
The next level is 'continent' and then 'island'
In continents reside 'Africa', 'Australia' 'Europe' etc.
I have all the countries of the world listed.
In Australia I have EVERY place name down to suburb and village for the whole continent in correct hierarchical order something like this:
Australia
Queensland
South-East Queensland
City of Brisbane
Hamilton
Hamilton Wharf
Each level done to Hamilton, which is a suburb of Brisbane is complete.
Hamilton Wharf is listed as a child of Hamilton because I actually have shot images there.
It is actually a large residential/commercial development on the banks of the Brisbane River and if needed to I could actually include a street address as the next level of keyword.

As an aside the advantage of using keyword hierarchies is that the Brisbane River belongs in a different section called 'RIVERS AND WATERWAYS'. Inside here is similar to 'WORLD LOCATION' but not as detailed so the 'Brisbane River' is found under 'Australia'>'Queensland'.

You may be tempted to think that if I was keywording images shot at Hamilton Wharf that included the Brisbane River that keywords might be duplicated since 'Australia' and 'Queensland' appear in two hierarchies but Lightroom is clever enough not to do this with the exportable keywords.

Non-exportable keywords are also useful to allow organisation in Lightroom but will never be included on exporting an image. You may export images depicting family members but might not want their names (as keywords) to be exported.

In 'WORLD LOCATION' many countries have absolutely no child keywords listed because it is relatively unlikely I will visit them but if I should plan to go to Algeria some day I will be sure to research how Algeria is organised geographically and politically and apply the results to the keyword hierarchy in preparation of my visit there.
I actually did this very thing preparing for an expedition to Southern Africa last year - I now have very detailed locational detail for South Africa, Botswana, and Namibia - the three countries I visited.

I have several resources for you to look at in preparing a keyword hierarchy:
Take a look at Seth Resnick's Workflow book;
Metadata.org is a very useful website to get acquainted with;
The Luminous Landscape website has a very good tutorial series called "Where the #$%^ are my Pictures" that is worth every cent; and
Our own Victoria Brampton's FAQ book explains the nuts and bolts of how Lightroom works including all aspects of metadata acquisition and keywording and how to use this to organise oneself.

Take a look at these resources, experiment in your TEST catalog, learn some skills and then get back to us with questions based on your experiences and learnt skills.

Tony Jay
 
Tony

FANTASTIC!!!
 
Firstly i would like to thank everyone for giving me your time and advice and i really am very grateful.
A special thanks to Tony for all of your patience and sound advice. I have now sorted the file system that i want in lightroom so i will now learn from your advice regarding Keywording etc.
I have spent the last day or so trying different ways of arranging things and am satisfied with the final result and the only way to do it jump in and get my feet wet.
I already have Victorias book in hard copy and iPad so will busy myself with that and also take a look at the resources you have given me.

Once again thanks to all for the great advice and your time and patience.
Regards Adrian
 
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