Opening/saving a file in CS3 gives different LR results...?

[Ruahrc]

I have been using LR for maybe a month, and think I have a decent handle on it. I just recently installed CS3 so that I may do some more in-depth editing.

I am in the process of stitching some panos using Hugin OSX, and have run into some problems regarding the interaction between LR and CS3.

I'll try to be complete and provide as much info as I can. Here's an overview of my process:

-Import NEF files into LR.
-Zero out presets, adjust WB and CA and apply to all images in the pano to be consistent.
-Export all images as 16-bit TIFF, ProPhotoRGB, uncompressed files.
-Assemble and stitch pano in Hugin. Resulting output is 16-bit TIFF, ProphotoRGB, uncompressed.

At this point I have 2 options. Since I render the pano with a little extra field of view on all sides to be conservative, I need to crop the extra space off. I can either do this in LR, or do it first in CS3, then import the smaller cropped file into LR. I'd prefer to do it the CS3 way as it will get rid of unecessary filesize used up on transparent edges of the pano. (Note that this is not a crop for composition, but rather to trim off as much useless data from the file as possible. Crops for better composition will always be done in LR so that I have the ability to modify the composition if needed.)

If I import the Hugin output direct into LR, I can crop the photo down there and make some adjustments. Everything's great. However, if I open the Hugin output in CS3 first, crop off the edges, and resave the file- importing this new file into LR and applying the same adjustments to the CS3 file via the "Sync" function in LR, the picture colors get messed up. See bottom of post for examples.

In CS3, I am sure to save the file as 16-bit, ProPhotoRGB embedded, uncompressed TIFF. These settings should be the same as the Hugin output, and the colors should not have been altered? The RGB working space of both LR and CS3 are both set to ProPhotoRGB. Thus, opening and resaving the file in CS3 should not have permanently altered the colors in the file, unless CS3 is doing some conversions behind the scenes without reporting them.

The same thing happens if I select the file from LR and choose "Edit in CS3". In that instance, since I wanted to permanently remove useless pano space, I chose to edit the original file. And again, in the LR preferences CS3 editing was selected to be 16 bit TIFFs using ProPhotoRGB, uncompressed. But after I cropped and saved the file in CS3, and returned to LR- the colors got messed up.

Has anyone else here encountered such problems? Am I not saving correctly in CS3? I'm using the save as command, and making sure that alpha layers are included, ProPhotoRGB is embedded, and uncompressed. RGB pattern I have selected as Interlaced, Macintosh byte order.

Technical details: LR is version 1.4.1, Camera Raw is 4.4.1, and CS3 is CS3 Extended version 1'.'.1.

See the attached images for an example of what I mean by color is messed up. It should be obvious which one is the wrong one.

Thanks for any advice!

Norman

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Hi Norman, welcome to the forum!

That certainly is a weird effect you're getting there!

Does this just happen with files from Hugin, or all files?

 

[Ruahrc]

Thanks for the welcome, Victoria!

It seems to happen to all TIFF files. I took a NEF I already edited in my database, and created a virtual copy of it. On this virtual copy I reset all the settings to zero, and exported it as a 16-bit TIFF in ProPhotoRGB. Opened the file in CS3, did a quick crop, and resaved. When I imported this new TIFF back into LR, and applied the same edits I had done to the original NEF, I got different results. The reimported tIFF was a lot brighter (way overblown in fact) compared to the NEF.

Not really sure how to proceed at this point.

Norman

 

[Andrew Hayton]

Norman,

When you re-import the tiff into LR, are you applying a preset or leaving it as none?

 

[Brad Snyder]

Norman, if I understand what you said in your second post:

1. Import a NEF.
2. Tweak it
3. VC it
4. Zero the VC (abandoning the NEF edits)
5. Go to PS in ProPhoto TIFF
6. PS save to ProPhoto TIFF
7. Reimport TIFF to LR
8. Tweak TIFF identical to #2

and they're different?

I think that's to be expected, the files are no longer identical, and in fact undergo completely different processing paths in LR. The NEF is still sensor matrix data, and is processed by ACR, and the TIFF is RGB pixel data, which even tho' it's 16 bit is handled differently.

I haven't actually experimented with that, but it doesn't surprise me that you're seeing different results.

Or maybe I've missed the point entirely....

 

[Ruahrc]

Brad, yes that is the process I used. You're right in that maybe the results should be a little different since the originating formats have changed, thus it may not be a true test of whether or not only TIFFs from hugin are affected.

What would be a way I could test this?

I'll double check to see if I'm applying a preset on TIFF import. However, if I understand the LR philosophy correctly, the presets applied on import should be reversible as they are only presetting the sliders in the develop module? And when I go to match the tweak settings with the TIFF I imported straight from Hugin using the sync function, should not these preset settings get erased/overridden?

Norman

 

[Brad Snyder]

Brad, yes that is the process I used. You're right in that maybe the results should be a little different since the originating formats have changed, thus it may not be a true test of whether or not only TIFFs from hugin are affected.

What would be a way I could test this?
I guess you could take a NEF, get it the way you want it in Capture NX (is that right name for the Nikon raw processor? I use Canon) and export a TIFF. Import them both to LR. Notice if there are any differences on import. Experiment with adjustments on each.

I'll double check to see if I'm applying a preset on TIFF import. However, if I understand the LR philosophy correctly, the presets applied on import should be reversible as they are only presetting the sliders in the develop module?

[COLOR=#''''ff]That's correct. However there is also a camera profile applied by ACR on import no matter what you do. I don't understand that as well as I should, but I'm not sure you can 'zero' that out. Perhaps someone can chime in.[/COLOR]

And when I go to match the tweak settings with the TIFF I imported straight from Hugin using the sync function, should not these preset settings get erased/overridden?

[COLOR=#''''ff]I'm not sure what you mean here, sorry.[/COLOR]

Norman

...........

 

[Ruahrc]

And when I go to match the tweak settings with the TIFF I imported straight from Hugin using the sync function, should not these preset settings get erased/overridden?

I'm not sure what you mean here, sorry.

What I mean is that if I make some adjustments in LR to a photo, and then sync over the settings from another photo, the adjustments I originally made will be overwritten. For example, say I had a photo where I only increased the exposure, and I had another photo where I increased only the contrast. If I select the photo where I increased the contrast as the source and then the photo where I increased the exposure as the target, and pressed "Sync", target photo will now have the increased contrast, and the increased contrast only right? The sync does not merge the adjustments- it only reads what adjustments are made on the source and applies them to the target(s), overwriting any other adjustments that were made (providing the correct checkboxes are selected in the Sync dialog).

So what I'm getting at is that no matter what preset(s), if any, are applied upon import, they are all erased or overwritten when I go to sync the adjustments from the original TIFF I had. I could apply a sepia tone preset to the photo upon import and it wouldn't matter because syncing the adjustments from another photo gets rid of whatever adjustments were there previously, right?

Norman

 

[Brad Snyder]

What I mean is that if I make some adjustments in LR to a photo, and then sync over the settings from another photo, the adjustments I originally made will be overwritten. For example, say I had a photo where I only increased the exposure, and I had another photo where I increased only the contrast. If I select the photo where I increased the contrast as the source and then the photo where I increased the exposure as the target, and pressed "Sync", target photo will now have the increased contrast, and the increased contrast only right?

Assuming you checked only Contrast in the Sync dialog, only the Contrast of the Target will be changed. The target will retain any other settings you had made (e.g. Exposure, as you noted). So, in your example, the Target will have the exposure change you made earlier, and the contrast change that you Sync'd onto (into?) it.

The sync does not merge the adjustments- it only reads what adjustments are made on the source and applies them to the target(s), overwriting any other adjustments that were made (providing the correct checkboxes are selected in the Sync dialog).

[COLOR=#''''ff]Yes, only what's selected in the Sync dialog, and only in the direction of 'most selected' (source) to 'selected' (target).[/COLOR]

So what I'm getting at is that no matter what preset(s), if any, are applied upon import, they are all erased or overwritten when I go to sync the adjustments from the original TIFF I had. I could apply a sepia tone preset to the photo upon import and it wouldn't matter because syncing the adjustments from another photo gets rid of whatever adjustments were there previously, right?

[COLOR=#''''ff]Yes, but only if you've selected all the pertinent parameter checkboxes in the Sync dialog.[/COLOR]

Norman

Easternherp suggested an accidental preset as perhaps part of your problem.
If that's not the case, or if you're sure you're zeroing it out, I stick by my earlier suggestion that NEF and TIFF files go down different pathways in the rendering engine, and that while you may be able to achieve very similar results, I believe it's high unlikely that that can be achieved by very similar settings.

Simply compare processing NEFs and JPGs of the same setup. Processing will be drastically different. IMHO the same situation applies to TIFFs.

That is, if I understand your original premise/question correctly, which I took to be:

"When I apply the identical settings from my NEF to the related TIFF, I don't get the same result."

If that's not the case, then in the words of the immortal Emily Litella (a Gilda Radner comic character) "Never mind ....."

 

[Ruahrc]

Well- the real original problem I am having is a difference between 2 TIFF files- one which I generated in Hugin and then imported to LR. The other TIFF is where I took the TIFF that I got from Hugin, open it in CS3 and crop it and resave it. Since both files are TIFFs, they should be going down the same processing pathway in LR, and *should* give the same results, since the only difference between the two is that one has some cropping applied to it.

The NEF vs TIFF thing was an extra test I tried to run to see if TIFFs exported from LR and reimported would look different- but you're right since in that case I was comparing a TIFF to a NEF, the result might not necessarily look the same.

If there is any interest, I can restitch my pano except make it really small and severely cropped (but still in uncompressed TIFF, so that there is no quality loss) so that it is feasible to email. I can then open and resave this file in CS3 and then send both to whomever wants it- they can try it for themselves to see if it is a problem on my setup or a problem with the program/files. Is there a way to "export" just the adjustments to a picture in LR? Else I will just write down the adjustments I made and you can manually apply them in LR or something.

I also wonder if LR2 has the same issue- I will try downloading the demo sometime soon too.

Norman

 

[Brad Snyder]

Well- the real original problem I am having is a difference between 2 TIFF files- one which I generated in Hugin and then imported to LR. The other TIFF is where I took the TIFF that I got from Hugin, open it in CS3 and crop it and resave it. Since both files are TIFFs, they should be going down the same processing pathway in LR, and *should* give the same results, since the only difference between the two is that one has some cropping applied to it.

Norman

One last gasp.

File A -> Hugin to LR
File B -> Hugin to CS3(crop) to LR

What happens if you run File A thru CS3 and save, and then import to LR?

Other than that, it's getting well beyond by knowledge or experience.

 

[Ruahrc]

What you describe is exactly what I am doing. Taking File A (what I get from Hugin) and running it through CS3 and then to LR. So in your diagram instead of File A and File B, they should both start as File A. Or, drawn a little differently:

Hugin -> outputs File A -> import file A into LR
Hugin -> outputs File A -> CS3 (crop and save as File B) -> import file B into LR

And the results from each method is different. The first method looks correct, the second method does not look correct. Remember all the files are always TIFF/ProphotoRGB and 16 bits.

Sorry I haven't been explaining it well. I hope I've cleared up the confusion this time.

Norman

 

[Sean McCormack]

Is Photoshop doing a colour conversion behind the scenes? Are your colour settings set to preserve profiles?

 

[Brad Snyder]

That's what I was trying to get at Sean. I thought we were dealing with 2 different TIFFS (as pieces of a pano) one of which was going thru CS3 and one of which wasn't.

Effectively that's what's happening here, only with a single file instead of 2.
So to sum it all up, correctly and finally, A Hugin export that goes thru CS3 is different from one that doesn't? I'm sorry, I guess I couldn't see the forest for the trees; I started responding to your interim questions in the middle of the thread.

I guess it's pretty clear that CS3 is doing something to the image.

And as Sean says it's probably somewhere in the color management settings, but I'm definitely not a PS guru, so I can't tell you how to set it up.

I think Victoria has some guidelines on setting consistent color preferences in PS. I think it boils down to:

Select ProPhotoRGB as the RGB Working Space
Under Color Management Policies, set all to 'Preserve embedded profiles'
Select all 3 checkboxes for profile mismatches, missing profiles and ask when pasting.

 

[someothername]

LR2 displays a similar effect, if I understood all of this correctly.

I have a pair of RAW images to pano stitch. I export them to CS2, do nothing with them there, close out CS2, and open Hugin and drag the two TIFF's into Hugin. When I open the completed Pano in LR2, there has been some shifting of exposure values. Correcting them seems to degrade image quality...