Newbie question about noisy RAWs

[LarsDaniel]

Hi, I have got my head in Lightroom for two days now. I was quite happy with Aperture 2, but my recent upgrade to EOS 5'd pushed me towards Lightroom (who knows when Aperture2 will support 5'd RAW... , so much for being "pro" software).

Here is my question: When I shoot RAW + jpg, then in Lightroom I find it VERY difficult to obtain the look that the jpg has. One thing is the colours, and obviously that is a combination of many settings that can be hard to match.
But worse is the situation with noise. I can reduce the noise in the RAW pretty well using the two Lightroom controls, but the strange thing is that it only looks comparable to the jpg when I zoom in to 1/1. 1/2 and any other magnification looks quite terrible. But with the same photo in jpg it looks great in 1/1 and equally great no matter what size I look at it in.

I just did a small job shooting an interior, and right now I feel like dumping the RAWs because I just cant seem to make them look as good as the camera jpg´s.

This feels a bit ironic, because lack of 5'd RAW support is why I am leaving Aperture. When I worked with RAWs from my 45'd in Aperture, they were always very close to the camera JPGs, and there was not this noise weirdness.

I would really appreciate any insights on this subject.

-Lars

 

[Kiwigeoff]

Lars, welcome aboard - I have just got out of bed and am rushing out to go ballooning. I'm sure someone will have responded by the time I get back, but I'll check in later to see.
In the mean time to help us help you could you please take a moment to fill in your signature with information similar to what I have, in the "userCP' that is found at the top left of the page - thanks.

 

[DonRicklin]

Welcome Lars. First for a better 'match' you should download and install the Beta 2 set of Camera Profiles from Adobe Camera Profiles and DNG Profile Editor FAQ.

And yeah, Noise Reduction can only be seen in 1:1 views in LR. Try and full size export to see if it really works. Then just trust that it does at smaller viewings in LR.

Don

 

[LarsDaniel]

Thanks. The general look of my RAWs are now very close to the JPG after intstalling the camera profiles, and then doing a few tweaks on the closest profile. So I would consider that sorted.

Not being able to see the noise reduction on anything but 1/1??? Hm, I suppose if it does not bother anybody else, I suppose I can learn to live with it. But this is not really the highpoint of LR, is it?
So it is like: "Here, see these new shots", "Uhm, what´s up with the green/purple blurry stuff", "Oh that´s just some noise, - it won´t be there when I do the export".

Anyway, it seems that one is likely to focus on the bad stuff when you switch your tools. The good news is that the noise reduction actually works well! And many other features in LR2 I am very happy about compared to Aperture. Hell, it even reads my RAW files :lol:.

 

[nguzman]

Thanks. The general look of my RAWs are now very close to the JPG after intstalling the camera profiles, and then doing a few tweaks on the closest profile. So I would consider that sorted.

Not being able to see the noise reduction on anything but 1/1??? Hm, I suppose if it does not bother anybody else, I suppose I can learn to live with it. But this is not really the highpoint of LR, is it?
So it is like: "Here, see these new shots", "Uhm, what´s up with the green/purple blurry stuff", "Oh that´s just some noise, - it won´t be there when I do the export".

Anyway, it seems that one is likely to focus on the bad stuff when you switch your tools. The good news is that the noise reduction actually works well! And many other features in LR2 I am very happy about compared to Aperture. Hell, it even reads my RAW files :lol:.

Lars, you can see the noise reduction and sharpening changes in non 1/1 magnification in Loupe view.

This problem (I believe it's considered a feature) of not being able to see sharpening/noise reduction effect in Fit view in the Develop module was my very first question back in LR1. It seems that Abobe will not change this--they intentionally force you to see these effects only in 1/1. People on this board will tell you there is some merit to this. Still, I would like the option to be able to see the effects in 25% or 5'% view like I'm able to do in Photoshop. After all that is probably closer to the size at which it will ultimately be viewed. Having to switch to Loupe view is a big inconvenience.

 

[Kiwigeoff]

I suggest you put in a request feature through the link in the tool bar above.

 

[Victoria Bampton]

It seems that Abobe will not change this--they intentionally force you to see these effects only in 1/1. People on this board will tell you there is some merit to this.

I believe this is for performance reasons - to put the whole image through the full imaging pipeline every time you made an adjustment would make all adjustments even slower, whereas to go through the shorter (no sharpening/nr) pipeline is obviously quicker. Perhaps a preference setting though...?

 

[nguzman]

I suggest you put in a request feature through the link in the tool bar above.

Thanks, Geoff. But first let me get my thoughts out in defense of viewing sharpening/noise reduction only in 1/1 view (hence, going against my own preference). I can see that it may be dangerous to offer sharpening without seeing it in full crop. In 1/1, the changes are obvious and it is almost guaranteed that you will not over-sharpen, which is one of the deadly sins in post-processing, right? But if you were able to see the effect in the Fit view, you may indeed over-sharpen or do too much noise reduction because in that smaller view, the change looks very subtle and there is a tendency to keep pushing those sliders to the right. If you were to then export the photo to a size larger than that Fit view size you were working on, you would be aghast at the result. That wouldn't happen if you worked in 1/1 view--thus Adobe's conservative approach. Still, I would like to have the weapon that would allow me to shoot my own foot :roll: -- well, maybe nobody else's foot.

This is only my guess. Please, Gurus, let me know if I am way off here or if there are other reasons as to why LR forces you to do sharpening/noise reduction in 1/1 view only.

 

[nguzman]

I believe this is for performance reasons - to put the whole image through the full imaging pipeline every time you made an adjustment would make all adjustments even slower, whereas to go through the shorter (no sharpening/nr) pipeline is obviously quicker. Perhaps a preference setting though...?

Aha, performance...that would be a good reason. Thanks.

 

[johnbeardy]

See the Detail panel - there's a 1:1 view and a little tool to help you target a critical image area.

John

 

[Brad Snyder]

Nelson, I know that I'm so used to the concept, that I don't even think about it anymore. But I know it annoys the cr@p out of some folks.

Best to take Geoff's suggestion, and register a feature request. Keep rattling the cage, squeaky wheels, and the like.

 

[nguzman]

Thanks to all. Here is the text of my feature request.

*******Enhancement / FMR*********
Brief title for your desired feature:
Show sharpening and noise reduction effects in non 1:1 views in Develop module.

How would you like the feature to work?
I know that sharpening and noise reduction edits should be done in 1:1 view, but please make the changes viewable in Fit view and Fill view. I suggest forcing the user to edit in 1:1 view by disabling the sharpening and noise reduction sliders in non 1:1 views and enable them only in 1:1. This way we can see the changes in a smaller view, the size that often is the one that gets exported. You already provide this in all Loupe views.

Why is this feature important to you?
It is important to be able to see sharpening effects in a size that will be closer to the size that will ultimately be exported. Currently, we see a false representation of the image in a non 1:1 view. Also, I like to use the Before/Current key ("\") to review my latest change, but this feature is useless for checking sharpening adjustments in the smaller views--the size that I usually export.

Thank you.

 

[LarsDaniel]

you can see the noise reduction and sharpening changes in non 1/1 magnification in Loupe view.

I (remember I´m a complete newbie to LR) just realized what the above statement really means. So now I just tap E to go from a noisy view in develop to a denoised view in loupe, and then D to go back to develop again.
So no, not a big issue anyway.

This appears to be one of a number of "traps" laid out, that migrants from Aperture are likely to fall in. Another one is how Collections behave differently e.g a reject in a collection is only local. It was driving me crazy until I realized how and why it is like it is.

 

[Ben Jenssen]

So now I just tap E to go from a noisy view in develop to a denoised view in loupe, and then D to go back to develop again.

This is my workaround also, except, as I recall you have to magnify in loupe to let LR generate the preview, zoom out and then the fit view will reflect the sharpening/NR.

I also put in a request at adobe, to have the option at least.

 

[Mark Sirota]

That's right, Ben. Anytime Lightroom generates a 1:1 preview, it will go through the full processing pipeline, which includes noise reduction and sharpening. The smaller previews are downsized from the 1:1.

So if you want your previews to show the effects of NR and sharpening, generate 1:1 previews by zooming in to 1:1 in Loupe, or by selecting "Render 1:1 Previews" from the Library menu.

 

[LarsDaniel]

This is my workaround also, except, as I recall you have to magnify in loupe to let LR generate the preview, zoom out and then the fit view will reflect the sharpening/NR.

Exactly! And that is perhaps something that could need a fix. At least the option to turn on "always make 1/1 previews".

But things like this is probably also a factor in how fast LR2 is. On my MacBook 2.' GHz it is SO much faster than Aperture2. Like when importing pics, I can start working effortlessly as soon as the first one comes in. Aperture was just "spinning beach balls of death" all over. I have even startet to appreciate that LR cant erase your card after the import, because formatting the card in the camera when reinserted, just takes a second in my 5'd. When Aperture2 erased the pics from the card, my MacBook was stalled for a l-o-n-g time.

I am quickly falling in love with LR28)

 

[Victoria Bampton]

That sounds about right Lars. Everything's a trade-off, and most people want speed. An 'always make 1:1 previews' would then have to determine exactly when to make the previews, and it's a slow process.

 

[Ben Jenssen]

Everything's a trade-off, and most people want speed. An 'always make 1:1 previews' would then have to determine exactly when to make the previews, and it's a slow process.

How about a button: "view with detail" in develop module.
I can see that you can't have continous update of full size preview with sharpening/NR all the time in develop. Every time you manipulated a slider, the workload would be unnessesarily high. I think.
The "view with detail"-button would simply do the workaround to loupe that I mentioned earlier, and upon further editing the preview would work just as now. Should be easy to implement I think. Years ago I would have made a QuickKeys shortcut...

By the way, I used these examples in a adobe forum discussion (http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?7@@.59b6adf'/8), to illustrate the difference between develop and loupe view when it comes to noise reduction:
http://home.broadpark.no/~benj/diverse/View_in_develop.png
http://home.broadpark.no/~benj/diverse/View_in_loupe.png

 

[Victoria Bampton]

I could see that working Ben.... feature request time! Official Feature Request/Bug Report Form