New PC for LrC

[thegios]

Lightroom Version Number

12.1

Operating System

1. Other (please note in thread)

Given that price is not a problem, but space on my desk is, I have two options

- the new Mac Mini M2 Pro with highest spec CPU/GPU + 32GB RAM + 512GB SSD for 2.300€

- a micro ATX desktop with i7 7700F i7-13700F+ RTX 3050 + 32GB RAN + 512 gB SSD for around 1.600€

I still strongly believe that for 700€ I get a lot more power, flexibility and expandability buying the i7, yet I'd like to hear your unbiased opinions.
Mac works, Apple is better and silly similar comments are to be avoided pls: explain why LrC is better on either one.

Thx

 

[Replytoken]

I just want to bel clear in reading your post. The i7 chip you are referring to is the i7-7700F. I am not familiar with the F designation in this model; is this correct? And you are aware that Intel is now on its 13th generation of chips. The seventh generation dates to about 2017 or so. I would suspect that an M2-based machine would provide a lot more processing power in a comparison.

--Ken

 

[thegios]

I just want to bel clear in reading your post. The i7 chip you are referring to is the i7-7700F. I am not familiar with the F designation in this model; is this correct? And you are aware that Intel is now on its 13th generation of chips. The seventh generation dates to about 2017 or so. I would suspect that an M2-based machine would provide a lot more processing power in a comparison.

--Ken

Typo error, I meant i7 13700 F, how do I edit the post?
F means no integrated GPU.

 

[thegios]

My main concern is not only raw CPU power, but the GPU: an external GPU with dedicated vRAM must be better on all aspects than the iGPU in the M2 PRO.

 

[GregJ]

Given that price is not a problem, but space on my desk is, I have two options

- the new Mac Mini M2 Pro with highest spec CPU/GPU + 32GB RAM + 512GB SSD for 2.300€

- a micro ATX desktop with i7 7700F + RTX 3050 + 32GB RAN + 512 gB SSD for around 1.600€

I still strongly believe that for 700€ I get a lot more power, flexibility and expandability buying the i7, yet I'd like to hear your unbiased opinions.
Mac works, Apple is better and silly similar comments are to be avoided pls: explain why LrC is better on either one.

Thx

I don't engage in Apple vs PC arguments, but I am a PC guy. Apple is fantastic and have made dramatic improvements in the past 2 years in terms of not being a step behind PCs on the latest hardware and components.
I don't know UK or mainland European / EU prices. I know that for sure in the US you could get a lot more machine than that for 1600 US Dollars (or 1600 Euro).

I will say that PC vs Mac, PC is more bang for the buck, but again, Apple is superb.

Just let me tell you not to get a PC with less than a 1TB M.2 PCIE4. Don not get a PC with a 512 GB boot SSD. I don't have space here to tell you why. Just trust me on that.

The Mac is going to be a great machine, but that cheaper PC is going to eat LR for lunch and LR will snap to attention and will not lag with 32 Ram, that new 13th Gen i7, that GPU and a fast boot SSD. Of course, the Mac won't lag either and is a fantastic machine.

How big is your pictures folder (or wherever all of your image files are stored)? If less than 1.5 TB, consider getting a 2TB internal M.2 PCIe 4 SSD as your main date drive (in addition to the 1 TB boot drive). With a PC that can be easily added in a few minutes of simple work as prices on 2 and 4TB SSDs drop. Can you do that on the Mac? Nope. I don't think so, but maybe Apple is better about that now.

The price on a 2TB M.2 PCIe 4 SSD has dropped in the US to around 180 bucks for the really good models (like Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB, which was 300 bucks 3 months ago). SSD prices are dropping.

I recommend for you to save money and get the PC. You can update it easily. If you were in the US, I would tell you exactly what to buy - where and how much. But I can't do that for you European fellows. It's a different marketing and tax Universe over there.

 

[Replytoken]

Typo error, I meant i7 13700 F, how do I edit the post?
F means no integrated GPU.

I edited the OP to read as you have corrected above.

--Ken

 

[thegios]

I don't engage in Apple vs PC arguments, but I am a PC guy. Apple is fantastic and have made dramatic improvements in the past 2 years in terms of not being a step behind PCs on the latest hardware and components.
I don't know UK or mainland European / EU prices. I know that for sure in the US you could get a lot more machine than that for 1600 US Dollars (or 1600 Euro).

I will say that PC vs Mac, PC is more bang for the buck, but again, Apple is superb.

Just let me tell you not to get a PC with less than a 1TB M.2 PCIE4. Don not get a PC with a 512 GB boot SSD. I don't have space here to tell you why. Just trust me on that.

The Mac is going to be a great machine, but that cheaper PC is going to eat LR for lunch and LR will snap to attention and will not lag with 32 Ram, that new 13th Gen i7, that GPU and a fast boot SSD. Of course, the Mac won't lag either and is a fantastic machine.

How big is your pictures folder (or wherever all of your image files are stored)? If less than 1.5 TB, consider getting a 2TB internal M.2 PCIe 4 SSD as your main date drive (in addition to the 1 TB boot drive). With a PC that can be easily added in a few minutes of simple work as prices on 2 and 4TB SSDs drop. Can you do that on the Mac? Nope. I don't think so, but maybe Apple is better about that now.

The price on a 2TB M.2 PCIe 4 SSD has dropped in the US to around 180 bucks for the really good models (like Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB, which was 300 bucks 3 months ago). SSD prices are dropping.

I recommend for you to save money and get the PC. You can update it easily. If you were in the US, I would tell you exactly what to buy - where and how much. But I can't do that for you European fellows. It's a different marketing and tax Universe over there.

Forgot to say that...
1. All my raw files are on an external RAID box (2 x 4TB HDs) connected via USB 3.0
2. Not all my raw files are added to the catalog, only those very few that I edit
2. Internal SSD is only for LrC, Office, catalog, cache and previews
3. Usually I edit one/five pic(s) per weekend (I'm not a pro) so what I do is: add the pics on ext RAID to the catalog, form LrC library rename the files, move the files to the SSD temporarily, edit them, export, move raw files back to their original location on ext RAID.2
4. 2 and 3 are the reasons why I don't need 1TB SSD , but hey in case the Xtra cost is not a deal breaker

Honestly currently I have what I believe to be a decent system: laptop with i7 7700HP + GTX 1050Ti + 32GB RAM + 512GB SSD

But the new AI masks seems to be very demanding: already three masks means that when changing a slider on a mask I need to wait 5-10 seconds to see the result. I'm not sure if the problem is the GPU not powerful enough for some tasks and thus requiring the 5 year old CPU to kick in (I can still tell the difference between GPU acceleration on/off in settings: when off working with masks is choppy), or is the problem is just the old CPU.

For sure it's neither the internal SSD nor the external RAID (when LrC is slowing down they are barely used: RAID at 0% and SSD at 5%), and it's not even the RAM, always used at 50%.

By the way, I have an EOS R so 30mpx raw files.

In theory an i7 13700 with iGPU should be more than enough for LrR, but I use conditional because I would have bet my right arm before the introduction of new AI masks, now I'm not sure an Iris Xe is enough, being it less powerful than the GPU in the M2 PRO.

I'm 50 year old, I spent years from 15 till 30 year old with my PCs' cases always open: that's to say I've always been an Intel/Windows guy since 1988.

 

[thegios]

I know that for sure in the US you could get a lot more machine than that for 1600 US Dollars (or 1600 Euro).

In Europe as well, but having space constraint, I need to buy a micro ATX case with micro ATX motherboard that typically cost a little more

 

[GregJ]

Forgot to say that...
1. All my raw files are on an external RAID box (2 x 4TB HDs) connected via USB 3.0
2. Not all my raw files are added to the catalog, only those very few that I edit
2. Internal SSD is only for LrC, Office, catalog, cache and previews
3. Usually I edit one/five pic(s) per weekend (I'm not a pro) so what I do is: add the pics on ext RAID to the catalog, form LrC library rename the files, move the files to the SSD temporarily, edit them, export, move raw files back to their original location on ext RAID.2
4. 2 and 3 are the reasons why I don't need 1TB SSD , but hey in case the Xtra cost is not a deal breaker

Honestly currently I have what I believe to be a decent system: laptop with i7 7700HP + GTX 1050Ti + 32GB RAM + 512GB SSD

But the new AI masks seems to be very demanding: already three masks means that when changing a slider on a mask I need to wait 5-10 seconds to see the result. I'm not sure if the problem is the GPU not powerful enough for some tasks and thus requiring the 5 year old CPU to kick in (I can still tell the difference between GPU acceleration on/off in settings: when off working with masks is choppy), or is the problem is just the old CPU.

For sure it's neither the internal SSD nor the external RAID (when LrC is slowing down they are barely used: RAID at 0% and SSD at 5%), and it's not even the RAM, always used at 50%.

By the way, I have an EOS R so 30mpx raw files.

In theory an i7 13700 with iGPU should be more than enough for LrR, but I use conditional because I would have bet my right arm before the introduction of new AI masks, now I'm not sure an Iris Xe is enough, being it less powerful than the GPU in the M2 PRO.

I'm 50 year old, I spent years from 15 till 30 year old with my PCs' cases always open: that's to say I've always been an Intel/Windows guy since 1988.

That is very interesting, and you know what you are doing and what your needs are. It's a hobby so don't take it too seriously (like I do and it's just a hobby for me too).

The new rig you describe will not lag on the new AI masking. There have been many reports here on this fine LR site and on computer blogs and forums about 5 and 6 year-old machines bogging down on LR now, especially with the new masking capabilities. I think I know why but suffice it to say that the new rig you describe is going to fly through LR with no problems. You will love it.

But look, I'm a little surprised by an aspect of your workflow. Just import all your raw shots into LR and the cat after shooting. No reason not to. What is this about not editing all of your raw files and importing only the ones you edit?

If the shots are keepers, then import them to LR and edit them, keyword them, name the files, titles, etc. It's almost as easy to do ten shots as it is one when you start the process. That is not increasing the size of your data requirements. It's just a catalog. The raws are the same either way. They are sitting on that raid stack. Well, if you generate 1:1 previews for them all it will add a space requirement.

And if I may be so bold, I don't think you need Raid 2 and two 4 TB disks on a stack. Just put all your files on one 6 or 8 TB external spinning HDD (they are not expensive) and then back it up twice to two other single drives. You do not need Raid.

Now listen to me on this.... Don't buy a PC with a 512 GB boot SSD. Don't do it,

 

[thegios]

There have been many reports here on this fine LR site and on computer blogs and forums about 5 and 6 year-old machines bogging down on LR now, especially with the new masking capabilities. I think I know why

Yes I've read a lot of complaints as well: what's your opinion?
I don't care if import/export takes a little longer: as I said I'm importing max 5 files at a time (more on this later) so if it takes 3 instead of 2 minutes, who cares. What's annoying is that once I add a face AI mask and the a radial mask that I need to adjust by adding/subtracting a brush, either the brush is choppy (which means: I start painting but I see results only after a couple of seconds, losing precision) or changing a slider for a mask is slow (for example, I increase shadows and then it spins for 3 or 5 seconds before I can see the results). Or for example, if I want to use a preset: hovering the mouse on a preset, takes seconds to see the result even on the thumbnail preview. This latter problem depends on the preset: some are fast but if the preset uses an AI mask, it takes seconds, like the photo below (don't judge result, sky is exaggerated on purpose): if I open the presets for sky and move cursor on different presets, nothing happens on the preview, unless I pause on one and wait. Same if, i stead of preset, I add a sky AI mask and move it's sliders: for each change it takes 5 seconds to be applied. And there are only 3 masks in this photo: sky AI, linear, linear + brush subtract.
In the past, before AI masks, I would have used a linear mask with colour range, adjusted with a brush, without a problem.

My brother in law, who a pro, uses Photoshop + Camera Raw, and has an i7 4th gen (a lot older than mine) and has no problems at all with PS layers. I know that PS works differently and it's pixel based, but this should prove the problem lies in the new LrC AI features. If the problem on old machines is CPU alone, GPU alone or the combination of both, I'm not sure yet.

 

[thegios]

That is very interesting, and you know what you are doing and what your needs are. It's a hobby so don't take it too seriously (like I do and it's just a hobby for me too).

The new rig you describe will not lag on the new AI masking. There have been many reports here on this fine LR site and on computer blogs and forums about 5 and 6 year-old machines bogging down on LR now, especially with the new masking capabilities. I think I know why but suffice it to say that the new rig you describe is going to fly through LR with no problems. You will love it.

But look, I'm a little surprised by an aspect of your workflow. Just import all your raw shots into LR and the cat after shooting. No reason not to. What is this about not editing all of your raw files and importing only the ones you edit?

If the shots are keepers, then import them to LR and edit them, keyword them, name the files, titles, etc. It's almost as easy to do ten shots as it is one when you start the process. That is not increasing the size of your data requirements. It's just a catalog. The raws are the same either way. They are sitting on that raid stack. Well, if you generate 1:1 previews for them all it will add a space requirement.

And if I may be so bold, I don't think you need Raid 2 and two 4 TB disks on a stack. Just put all your files on one 6 or 8 TB external spinning HDD (they are not expensive) and then back it up twice to two other single drives. You do not need Raid.

Now listen to me on this.... Don't buy a PC with a 512 GB boot SSD. Don't do it,

Here's a screen recording

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16kuVXz3SkgfbMi6WxN6K1bGbWvgJHS6j/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[GregJ]

Yes I've read a lot of complaints as well: what's your opinion?
I don't care if import/export takes a little longer: as I said I'm importing max 5 files at a time (more on this later) so if it takes 3 instead of 2 minutes, who cares. What's annoying is that once I add a face AI mask and the a radial mask that I need to adjust by adding/subtracting a brush, either the brush is choppy (which means: I start painting but I see results only after a couple of seconds, losing precision) or changing a slider for a mask is slow (for example, I increase shadows and then it spins for 3 or 5 seconds before I can see the results). Or for example, if I want to use a preset: hovering the mouse on a preset, takes seconds to see the result even on the thumbnail preview. This latter problem depends on the preset: some are fast but if the preset uses an AI mask, it takes seconds, like the photo below (don't judge result, sky is exaggerated on purpose): if I open the presets for sky and move cursor on different presets, nothing happens on the preview, unless I pause on one and wait. Same if, i stead of preset, I add a sky AI mask and move it's sliders: for each change it takes 5 seconds to be applied. And there are only 3 masks in this photo: sky AI, linear, linear + brush subtract.
In the past, before AI masks, I would have used a linear mask with colour range, adjusted with a brush, without a problem.

View attachment 20261

My brother in law, who a pro, uses Photoshop + Camera Raw, and has an i7 4th gen (a lot older than mine) and has no problems at all with PS layers. I know that PS works differently and it's pixel based, but this should prove the problem lies in the new LrC AI features. If the problem on old machines is CPU alone, GPU alone or the combination of both, I'm not sure yet.

Your brother is a pro and has a computer 8 years old? No way he is going to run LR well right now. But the new LR features are not a "problem" in my opinion. It's a good problem to have if you look at it that way. If we want LR to progress with powerful new features that require a lot of memory and computational power (both CPU and GPU) and that displays on a larger 4K OLED, mini-LED or good pro monitors, then like gamers, we have to stay somewhat current on our hardware, or if not current, at least not that old.
I think a mid-range rig obtained now will do well with LR for years to come. The problem is with these old computers trying to run LR right now.
There has been a huge leap in computer capability in the last 5 years. LR is adding some features that make it really tough on those old rigs.
I'm glad because LR is better than it has ever been and it is going to keep getting better.

 

[thegios]

Your brother is a pro and has a computer 8 years old? No way he is going to run LR well right now. But the new LR features are not a "problem" in my opinion. It's a good problem to have if you look at it that way. If we want LR to progress with powerful new features that require a lot of memory and computational power (both CPU and GPU) and that displays on a larger 4K OLED, mini-LED or good pro monitors, then like gamers, we have to stay somewhat current on our hardware, or if not current, at least not that old.
I think a mid-range rig obtained now will do well with LR for years to come. The problem is with these old computers trying to run LR right now.
There has been a huge leap in computer capability in the last 5 years. LR is adding some features that make it really tough on those old rigs.
I'm glad because LR is better than it has ever been and it is going to keep getting better.

He's using Photoshop not Lightroom and it's running pretty fine.

Look at my video above, especially when I start on my wife's portrait.
The funny thing is that if I close LrC and reopen it, using a radial mask on my wife is not any longer a problem, it's all very smooth.
It's like if LrC at a certain point goes crazy, like if there's a memory leak bogging down the system.
When trying to record the first time, computer even crashed, shutting down completely when trying to move the radial mask. And LrC is the only sw I am having issues with.

 

[GregJ]

He's using Photoshop not Lightroom and it's running pretty fine.

Look at my video above, especially when I start on my wife's portrait.
The funny thing is that if I close LrC and reopen it, using a radial mask on my wife is not any longer a problem, it's all very smooth.
It's like if LrC at a certain point goes crazy, like if there's a memory leak bogging down the system.
When trying to record the first time, computer even crashed, shutting down completely when trying to move the radial mask. And LrC is the only sw I am having issues with.

i can't open the link.... No worries. When you get your new machine, you are going to be cooking with grease.

 

[thegios]

i can't open the link.... No worries. When you get your new machine, you are going to be cooking with grease.

I have no doubts, but am not gonna buy a new PC if first I don't understand what's wrong with mine, given that it should still run LeC decently.

What problem u have with the link?

 

[gYab61zH]

Given that price is not a problem, but space on my desk is, I have two options



Thx

I don't get it. If price is no problem, why not go for the Apple Studio with M1 Ultra chip and loads of memory (Greg is quite right about the 512 SSD; go for 1 Tb).

 

[thegios]

I don't get it. If price is no problem, why not go for the Apple Studio with M1 Ultra chip and loads of memory (Greg is quite right about the 512 SSD; go for 1 Tb).

Because I do not want an Apple in my house

 

[gYab61zH]

Interesting way to conduct a discussion ("I have two options ...").

 

[thegios]

Interesting way to conduct a discussion ("I have two options ...").

Maybe you missed this part:

"I still strongly believe that for 700€ I get a lot more power, flexibility and expandability buying the i7, yet I'd like to hear your unbiased opinions."

So it's obvious I don't like Apple.
But I could argue that you're not giving your opinion, just saying "buy an Apple", which is not what I asked.

 

[johnbeardy]

I've locked this thread as it's becoming tetchy.

Also, it's not nice to ask people to spend their time helping you choose between Mac and PC options and then announce that you don't want Apple anyway.

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Mac vs. PC threads, especially ones based on opinions rather than benchmarks, are frequently the cause of unnecessary arguments.

Lightroom can run well on both Windows and Mac operating systems. As you really don’t want a Mac, I agree that there’s nothing more to discuss on this topic, stick with Windows

not gonna buy a new PC if first I don't understand what's wrong with mine, given that it should still run LeC decently.

Now that is a valid question, feel free to start a new thread if you’d like help to investigate why it’s not running well for you.