Moving to Lightroom 2.2 - Updating / Organising "old" Archives

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MarcoMarine

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Hello (and Happy New year to all...)
I am a photographer, taking mainly pictures of large yachts, Hotels and resorts with Canon cameras and lenses, shooting RAW
Until now I was -happily- doing my images post-processing on MacBook Pro + La Cie Screen, mainly with Bridge CS3 - Photoshop CS3.
I bought the Canon 5DMark II one month ago.
In order to to process my 5DMkII pictures, I should upgrade to CS4 and get the Camera Raw upgrade, or work with Canon DPP, or with Lightroom 2.2. (DXO does not support Canon 5DMkII yet)

BVut...
- I am not sure I want to upgrade to CS4,
- I do not like to work with Canon DPP (excellent program but I am too much used to Bridge/Photoshop).
- I found the new functions in Lightroom 2.2 very interesting (mainly no more layers for light/local color retouching, workflow, interface, etc...)
I spent the last week viewing anything possible on the web, DP Rewiew, DPP, Digital Moods, Lightroom news, Yanick's school, general Lightroom forums, etc... and speaking with other Photographers.

My concern (and questions) is about my existing archive:
- I have at least 4 TeraBytes of pictures into 2 large Folders named "Yachts" and "Hotels".
Each folder contains sub-Folders with individual name of yachts or Hotels.
Each sub-folder contains
- 1 folder with untouched RAW images named "Archive"
- 1 folder with a selection of the best shots (in Raw format) named "Selection"
- 1 Folder with High and Low def TIFF, Eps or JPG

First question:
Normally I import on my desk (and back-up on a 1TB Hard drive + other back-up) the new images I want to view and process.
I process them and back-up the new processed images.
I do not have specific exif data other than the Copyright and contact.
But I would like to start the New Year well, and from now on, I would like to insert the "key words" and Lightromm seems good for this purpose also.
Can I keep this structure as it is, and go on with my "archive system"?

Second Question:
If I switch to Lightroom 2.2, I read that the images will be kept in "collections" or Folders named by dates...
I do not need folders labeled with dates, but by name of each work: can I still do this?...

Third question:
The collections I will now have with Lightroom can be organized in the same way?... (name of the work/job tahther than dates)...

Thank you for the attention, hoping to receive your comments.
Marco
 
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Answer to first question: Lightroom's Library is a database — it points to your photos, wherever they are. The database doesn't care where they are, they can anywhere you want the photos to be, so your existing folder structure is fine (as is any other folder structure).

Answer to second question: see answer to first question. Also, collections are optional (but useful) things you can create. You don't have to have collections, and if you do have collections, your photos don't move.

Answer to third question: the organizing that happens in Lightroom only happens because you, the user, choose to organize them in some way. Lightroom doesn't organize photos by itself. Usually, people organize via tags and collections. So in your case, you might want a "Hotel" collection, a "Yachts" collection, and subcollections, along with appropriate tags.

Advice: when you use a database like Lightroom to keep track of your photos, it helps if you abandon (or de-emphasize) the folder based thoughts that you currently have for keeping track of your photos. You can still put the photos in folders just as you did before, but after that, Lightroom offers ways to organize that are much more powerful than anything you can do with folders. The work you put into developing a good folder structure should now be put into developing good tags and collections. I personally don't worry about where my photos are, in fact I can't tell you what folders most of my photos are in, because I know I can find them quickly in Lightroom using tags and collections (and much more quickly that I can find them in Windows).
 
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Lr doesn't force you to organize by date, but since so many folks choose that route, it does provide a good deal of assistance along those lines.

In general, as DJ says, if you like your current system, Lr will support it to a certain extent.

The major problem that I see is that Lr is intended to work in a slightly different workflow than you're using, and your dependence on multiple file representations of the same image is going to cause problems.

Do you need to have the parallel folders of derivative files, (TIFs, JPGs, hi/lo res etc.) available at all times, or simply be able to produce them on demand?

Because the second way is how Lr is intended to work.

Import your raws into your current naming convention / folder structure. Use Lr to process the raws, do your culling, picks, rating, keywording, etc. Use one of several methods, (keywording, collections, ratings, flags) to isolate the 'best'.

Then only create the derivative files as needed, and delete them as soon as possible thereafter.

If you need continous access to those derivative files, then we'll have to help you to a more complicated arrangement.
 
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Thank you for your answer, Paige; especially for the "Advice"... I guess I just have to start using Lightroom and keep udpdated reading forums like this one...
Cordially

Marco
 
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Archive-Collections

Thank you for your answer Brad:
1) I do "not" need to have the parallel files (TIFF, Eps, JPG, etc..) available at all times, but as I have to send my pictures to different final "users" (advertising agencies, Charter/Sales brokers, magazines, etc...) they need different formats.

2) Working on a MacBook Pro with at least 5'/6'Gb available at all times, can I keep:
a) all the "collections" on my Macbook
and
b) the "heavy" files anywhere else?...
Meaning: how much will be the "weight" of "Collections" files (so the "virtual" files) let us say for 1'.''' pictures (2'' "jobs", 5' "best" pictures for each "job", 15 mb each picture if in JPG, up to 6' mb each if in Tiff with the 5DMkII)?...

3) Precision: you write <<Use one of several methods, (keywording, collections, ratings, flags) to isolate the 'best'.
Then only create the derivative files as needed, and delete them as soon as possible thereafter.>>
Why should I delete the derivative files as soon as possible?.. I should indead keep them together in the "Job" specific folder, to have them available when I need to forward them to whoever will need them, no?...
Do you meean "delete the derivated files from my MacBook once they have been safely back-up on another Hard Drive(s)"?...

4) what would be your best advice to "catalogue / Sort" all the "old" archives?...
My first guess would be to hire somebody spending 8 hours a day to open the "selected" files in LR, label them, and create a "collection" for each job.
I would have him/her using Lightroom to be consistant with my "new" processing with this program, rather than use a may-be faster other Archive program.
Which bring to question 5:

5) Can I install Lightroom on 2 diffrent computers?... or the "license" is only for "one" installation?...

6) and last...
Example: I am shooting a Yacht in Cannes or Monte Carlo, I end up to have let's say 1'' "best" pictures.
I will have a file (or a collection?...) bearing the name of the yacht, and one set of processed pictures on the "archives" hardrive + Back-up Hardrive.
Now, amongst the 1'' pictures, I will have 5 which should go in another file named "Sunset", 5 in another folder names "beach", 5 in another folder named "Running shots" and 5 in another folder named "Crew pictures"

The way I was working until now was to create copies of the low-def selected pictures, and organize them in all the different destination folders, ending up to have for example 1' copies of the same low def picture in 1' different folders....

Am I understanding well in saying that with Lightroom, I will now have
- only ONE folder of processed pictures,
and instead to have 1' other different copies I will have 1' "collections" of virtual images?...
If I want to sent to a final user a selection of the pictures I have for a specific yacht, what should I do?... Create a "slides-show" of "virtual" images?...
For now, I send a PDF presentation done in Photoshop CS3 of Low Def images, in order to have a "small" size PDF (therefore the need to process "low-Def" on top of Tiff and High Def JPG...).
With Lightroom, what will I have to do to send a "document", a simple "file" (such a PDF) to show the available pictures to a potential client or user?...

Thnk you very much in advance for your attention, I understand that these are a lot of questions, but hopefully the answers will be helful also for other users...

Last Question: if I download a "3' days trial" version of Lightroom, can I start to work on the spot, or are they any "limitations" in saving the files or in some "functions"?...

Cordially

Marco
 
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Hi Marco, here are some answers

1) Usually, you would create the different file formats (.tif, .jpg, etc.) when you need them. Lightroom has functions to do this. Then you save them as long as you need them. I agree deleting is better for me than keeping them forever, as they can be easily recreated. But if you want to keep these derivative files forever, then go ahead and do so.

2) The collections are kept in the Catalog file. You have no choice here. I don't know how much space this takes up, but probably not a lot, as the collection is simply an indication in the database that these 12 files are a collection with a certain name. This is the advantage of Lightroom's database, and collections in the database ... you don't need to create new files, and so the space needs of a collection are relatively small. As I said before, when you need the actual files to send to a client, Lightroom will create them easily.

3) See #1

4) Never had to do this, but what you wrote sounds reasonable. I don't know how many collections/photos you have, but turning a group of photos into a collection and tagging them with the proper tags really doesn't take that long. You can take all 1'' photos and with a few mouse clicks, you have a collection.

5) I don't know

6) Each yacht you shoot would be a Collection (or a tag), then "Sunset" would be a sub-collection (or its own tag), "Beach" would be a sub-collection (or its own tag), and so on. (Tags and collection overlap somewhat in purpose, some people prefer to use collections, some people prefer to use tags). In Lightroom, I would not generate photos "ending up to have for example 1' copies of the same low def picture in 1' different folders....", you keep them in collections (which as I said are not files, they are internal to the database, but to the human, they appear to be actual collections of images). You wind up generating the copies to send your clients when you need them. From Lightroom, you can send your clients individual files, you can send them a Slideshow, you can create web-galleries, or you can do all of the above.

As I said before, to use Lightroom most effectively, you need to stop thinking in terms of files and folders so much, and more in terms of Lightroom structures and workflow. I agree you still need to think in terms of files when you need to send files to your clients, and when you first get the files from the camera. But other than that, no more thinking about files and folders :)! (Yes, I know, its hard since that's the way you have thought for most of your life, but Lightroom really does make the management of your photos possible without thinking about files and folders most of the time)

The Lightroom 3' day trial is the full version. No limitations (except that 3' day thing).
 
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Thank you Paige... and what is best CS4 or LT2.2

Thank you for all these info...

I just realized that there are 6'+pages of threads... only for the General discussions... and I am going through them slowly...
A LOT of good informations.
And the fact that you --or somebody else-- WILL answer is encouraging me a lot.

I started Photography 2' years ago (professionally, meaning in my mind poing it full-time --even when you would like to do other things:|-- and getting money out of it, i.e having to "run" my passion as a business) and the "folders" way was one of the few we had at this time... because we had no large hard-drives and had to back up on "diskettes", then on Iomega largers disks (few GB), then on small hard-drives (16 GB!.... for the cost of a 2 TB nowadays...), not mentioning the fact that we were dealing with Slides and Scans... and then only with the few MB of the Sony or first Nikon digitals, etc... and the selection of slides WAS indeed a "folder" selection in the sense that we would pit the best slides on sheets then in a hanging folder....
Well, learning keeps me young...

There is one thing I wanted to know from a "Guru": "Comparing Lightroom versus Bridge/Photoshop"
- limited to CS3 as I do not know CS4,
- and NOT overall, but limited to a PHOTOGRAPHY point ov view
May be it could be a new thread?... May be it already exists somewhere?...

so far I found:
PRO LIGHTROOM:
- Non-destructive local control (and easier)
- Non-destructive healing and cloning brush
- Non-destructive editing
- Larger "compare and survey" views
- Interface customisable faster
- Interface with controls accessible easier and always ready
- History always available even after the "save" action
- Batch processing better in LT
- Collections and smart collections, virtual
- better color control?... (HSL), more precise with the "Targeted Adjustment" function
- Price / Cost
- more adapted to Photographers workflow:) which seems obvious as created for them...

PRO Bridge/Photoshop:
- with LT you have to have the program "registering / recognizing" the pictures by importing their info/location, with Photoshop/Bridge you just have to drop the picture on their icons
- resizing the images (?...)
- Filters / "Deformation of the lens" window
- More literacy, infos, forums, on Bridge/Photoshop than on Lightroom

when you have time, please let me know your thoughts about...

In any case, trhere is no doubt in my mind after the research I did: 2''9 will be my "Lightroom" year.

Cordially
Marco
 
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Thanks for telling us your history in photography, Marco. Interesting. My history began as an amateur photographer, my workflow was simply writing some information on the envelope that contained my prints, and then filing the envelope away. I worked for a major photographic company (can't tell you the name, but they are located in Rochester, NY) that made something called film.

Why couldn't George Eastman have just invented digital instead of film? It would have saved us a lot of effort converting...

I'm not sure what you mean by "with LT you have to have the program "registering / recognizing" the pictures by importing their info/location, with Photoshop/Bridge you just have to drop the picture on their icons". But whatever you mean, I hardly consider this to be a disadvantage; certainly Lightroom does not make this difficult or time consuming.

I wouldn't bother trying to read all 6' pages in this forum. Your head will explode. I would recommend downloading Lightroom, finding tutorials on Lightroom (here are some), buying a book or two on Lightroom (I like Martin Evening's book, which has great chapters on workflow, and great examples of editing) and get started doing real work. This forum is great when you have questions, many probably have been already answered.

Lightroom does resize images upon export, if you so desire.

For other editing, you can send the photo from Lightroom to CS3 (or other editors), do your edits (lens deformation, etc.) and then the resulting photo appears in your Lightroom Library. So you don't lose the abilities of CS3 if you use Lightroom.
 
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dj_paige said:
...it helps if you abandon (or de-emphasize) the folder based thoughts that you currently have for keeping track of your photos.
Click to expand...


Good advice. As a real newbie to LR, this concept was slowly creeping into my workflow habits; glad to hear it stated so clearly.
 
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Thank you Paige

I wouldn't bother trying to read all 6' pages in this forum. Your head will explode. I would recommend downloading Lightroom, finding tutorials on Lightroom (here are some), buying a book or two on Lightroom (I like Martin Evening's book, which has great chapters on workflow, and great examples of editing) and get started doing real work. This forum is great when you have questions, many probably have been already answered.

Once again, Paige, you gave me "THE" right answer, thank you...
As soon as I will have some practice with LT, I will let you know, hoping I will not have to post too many "help" threads....;)
Cordially
Marco
 
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Thank you Brad, I am right "in" Lightroom and I will contact you once I understand some more. Compliments for your pictures and for the "Rachal Jump"...
Cordially
Marco
 
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Phew, long thread!

Ok, let me just answer one question that I may have missed - yes, you can install on 2 machines, as long as they're not both in use at the same time.

FWIW, I still like folders too! And Lightroom will work whichever way you want to, as long as you understand what it's doing.

Re: your pros/cons, yes, LR won't completely replace PS yet - it still has its place - but LR is more efficient for the majority of the workflow, and as Paige so rightly said, just skip over to PS when you need to. I wouldn't worry about there being more info on Bridge/PS - that's just more to confuse. There's a wealth of information out there about LR now, and it's all targeted at photographers, which makes it much more useful.
 
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Thnak you victoria: but STRONG concern about Crashing/Freezing

Thank you for your answer, Victoria...

I did download the free 3' days trial and I am also dowloading CS4.

My main concern at this stage is that, as I do not know the Lightroom program, I am afraid that it will "freeze" when I use the "healing brush" or do another action as I read in this --very good-- Forum

I proces 1'' pictures --average-- per week, usually in one working session, and this takes me half a day.
The new files of Canon 5DMKII will be at least 25/3' Mb each
Now that we are starting a "Collectif" (a group of 4 photographers), I am pretty sure I will do at least a MINIMUM of 3'' pictures / week, because I will leave the "youngs" taking the pictures, and I will do the post processing....

When I worked with Camera Raw, I could "upload" one file containing at least 1'' pictures of 15 Mb/each (in fact, when I had more than 1'' pictures to view in Camera Raw, to select them and open them in Bridge, then in CS3 when needed, I had to create subfolders with no more of 1'' pictures each).
I did experiment few "freeze" (more than crash..) with Camera Raw / Bridge, but I just had to relaunch the program, and continue to work...
And I have to say that this did happen only when I was working with pictures stored in the external drive La Cie 32' Gb "Roughed" with 4''/8'' firewire connection...
If I had the pictures on my MacBook hard drive, this did not happen (but still keeping 1'' pictures max in a folder).

So now that I am enthousiast and ready to move on Lightroom, I read everywhere (even in the official Adobe page!...) that LT2.2 freezes when you use some tools... and there is nothing to do about, until ADOBE will (if they will) find a solution and issue an up-date...

The only solution they give (even Adobe!!!...) to fix the problem is to "relunch" Lightroom 2.1 (instead of LT 2.2)... and I do not like at all this possibility.
Nobody is speaking about an update fixing the "freeze" problem... and it is sad, because if I buy a product, it has to work...
It would be like going from an utility car to buy a Porshe, but the Porshe "could" stop wherevere, whenever, and the only solution would be to leave it where it would be and go back to drive my utility car...

They ALL say that Lightroom is for PHOTOGRAPHERS...Fine, and in this case, I can NOT take the risk to process a lot of pictures, and LOSE the processing because the program did freeze (not because I did a mistake, or because the computer is not good, or because I use a NON original program, etc...).
I just can NOT figure myself working for hours and hours and having to RE-DO all what I was doing... I would prefer to stay with the Utility car...

So could you be so kind yo let me know if there is a solution?...
Should I process ONE picture at a time with Lightroom, save it, and then process another one?...
If I have to do so, I will...
But is it not in "contradiction" with the "collections" system?...
If I process one picture at a time, should I have to save it as a "sub collection"?...

Basically, I do not mind that much if the program "freeze", as long as I can re-launch it easily, as I do with Camera Raw/Bridge... without even re-starting the computer...
But I would REALLY mind to have to import a bunch of pictures, process them, and when I have to "save them" at the end of the work-session, or if the program "freezes", LOSING all the work done...

and I have to add that with Camera Raw, Bridge and CS3 I ALWAYS try to do NOT process too much a picture, in the sense that I do my best to get GOOD pictures when I take them, taking my time, checking carefully the set-up of the camera, the lack of vibrations around me, the Focus, the "light", etc... Meaning that rather to have to correct a picture with "Highlights-lowlights" in Photoshop, I would do my best to "light" properly the room or the subject in the best possible way...

I mainly use:
- in Bridhe: little sharpening, vignetting, checking colors (white balance, saturation, clatity, Hue, etc...)
- in CS3: retouch "stains" on the hull of the yacht (for example), the "lens Correction" because I shoot with wide angle lenses; resizing; saving the Raw as Tiff and JPG...

So what "WOULD BE" interesting in Lightroom for me is the workflow, doing "everything" (or the little I do...) on 1 single program, and cataloging the pictures

But if I know that I have the risk to loose the work I did on several pictures, I rather update to CS4 and get ACR 5...

Could you please tell me which is your professional opinion about?...

Thanking you in advance for your time and attention, I remain

Sincerely yours
Marc
 
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Marc, to put your mind at rest a little, I process a minimum of 25'' photos a week, and many many more during the height of the wedding season - all in Lightroom.

Did I see that you're also Mac based? IMHO, there have been far less problems with the Mac version - simply because there isn't the huge range of hardware and drivers to cause compatibility problems.

There are problems with 2.2 at the moment, so I wouldn't base your decision entirely on that. That said, I've been using 2.2 constantly for ages, and it's still running fine here. Adobe will fix it, and hopefully before too long. It's bad timing that everyone's on holiday!

I'm not going to pretend LR's perfect. It's not, and we all know it! But then, Bridge and Photoshop also have their fair share of bugs - and I've lost far more image adjustments in Bridge crashes than I ever have in LR bugs.

The other thing to bear in mind is that reading the forums doesn't give you a clear picture of the products performance - the only people on the forums are usually those with problems - the large number that aren't having problems don't visit!

If you want a belt-and-braces type approach, turn on 'automatically write changes to xmp' in Preferences. That will write out the settings to sidecar xmp files just like Bridge would (as well as its own catalog), but unlike Bridge, it writes them a few seconds after making the change. If Bridge crashes, you lose everything you did since you last hit 'Done'. If LR crashes, you lose the last few seconds.

If you like your Bridge/ACR workflow, that's great, but I wouldn't rule out Lightroom.
 
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water to a thirsty man!...

Well, here is a post I REALLY like for sure!...

25'' photos, per week!.. Hat off!...

I completely understand what you are saying about posts (if not, I would NEVER have get a Canon 5DMarkII... reading only the DP Reviem forum posts about, black dots issue, error 2' / 7', etc... mine is --luckily?...-- working very fine, and I LOVE it, as much as I still do love my Canon 5 D after 3 years of perfect working...).
You mean that out of 1''' Porshes, may be 1 or 2 did stop on the Highway without any reason, but this does not mean that the 998 other ones will stop in the same way... Fine :D
In any case, I really want to try to work with Lightroom, but as long a it is my personal work, I do not mind that much... Another story is to RECOMMEND to our group of 4 photographers (and surely others...) to work on Lightroom, buy it and install it on our computers... and that is why I was careful and checked the most I could about...

One of my friend, professional "pictures optimizer" for several magazines told me that Lightroom was indeed the way to go, as Adobe will concentrate more and more functions on this program in order to get "THE" professional photographer program..

Well, I will do my proper training on Lightroom, and will tell you about my experience about, negative OR positive, for sure...

May I ask you:
- which camera(s) and lenses are you mainly using?...
- which are the kind of pictures you mainly do? (such as "portraits/people, or landscapes/nature, or Studio, or Architecture/interiors, or... other?
The pictures I mainly take, as written before, are Yachts and Hotels, kind of "easy" to take as far as exteriors (I only have to get the right light), much harder to do the "interiors", dealing with DOF and sharpness, proper lights, rendering of colors, wide angle views then croped vs panoramic with 3/4 pictures overlaping, highlights/lowlights, etc...
- which are the main corrections/actions you do on Lightroom?...

Thank you for your answer, and for your time!...
Cordially
Marc
 
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That's an excellent illustration Marco.

My own camera is just a Canon 35'd - I prefer small and light for personal use. I do a lot of processing for wedding photographers worldwide, so that covers the whole range of mainly Canon and Nikon pro level bodies and lenses. It's good, I get to see a bit of everything! A lot of my time is spent doing straight color/density adjustments for a massive mix of lighting situations. There are some things I still flip to PS for - lens corrections, proper pixel retouching, but as time goes by, I'm doing more and more in LR, and I'm sure that will continue to grow as more features are added.

I'd agree completely with your friend - the amount of photographer-specific features they have already jammed into Lightroom is actually quite incredible considering it's less than 2 years old. Photoshop covers a broad range of uses, whereas Lightroom can concentrate on what photographers actually need. The fact that many of the engineers are keen photographers themselves is a real bonus in that regard.

LR has its moments, but then, Photoshop 2 wasn't quite the polished piece it is today either. If you learn how it's thinking, almost any issue can be avoided.
 
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Sure that your book helps a lot...

Thanks again for your answer..

'Sure that the best "Digital expense" I did lately was to buy your book, PDF version...
I should have start by doing this 1' days ago, instead of spending hours and hours researching info on the Net, info which... are all in your book. (and more...)

By what I could see going through it, it's complete, simply written, practical, going straight to the point, so that even a "computer un-literated old man" like me (using computers only for their functions of e-mail, Internet and Photography digital lab), can understand it!...

Thanks Victoria, I have mixed --good-- feelings of gratitude for all these clear info and "tutorials" you are so kind to share, and admiration for the huge work you surely did!...
Can I say that the title may miss-lead some: there is way far more than FAQ in your book!...
And at this price, its a bargain...
Cordially
Marco
 
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Thanks Marco! I lost count of the number of questions I included, from here and from other forums, and the list is still growing for the v3 edition! Enjoy!
 
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