LR RAW vs JPG interpretation

[Call_me_Tom]

Hey everyone. The name is Tom and I love LR. Besides a few quirks here and there I think that LR will evolve into a great photographer oriented image editing program. I don't feel that it is quite there yet but I will enjoy following it on its journey. Now to my question and gripe. From my observations it appears that LR only interprets RAW images and leaves JPG's alone, can anyone confirm this? Yes, I did a search and I found more talk discussing RAW interpretation then I did JPG interpretation; my question is specifically related to JPG's. I ask because I find it extremely annoying that LR would not follow the settings that I've punched into my camera and would instead interpret the RAW image how it pleases. As a work around I'm now only importing JPG's into LR unless the image needs some special help in which case I'll process the RAW image in CS3.

 

[Denis Pagé]

Hey everyone. The name is Tom and I love LR. Besides a few quirks here and there I think that LR will evolve into a great photographer oriented image editing program. I don't feel that it is quite there yet but I will enjoy following it on its journey. Now to my question and gripe. From my observations it appears that LR only interprets RAW images and leaves JPG's alone, can anyone confirm this? Yes, I did a search and I found more talk discussing RAW interpretation then I did JPG interpretation; my question is specifically related to JPG's. I ask because I find it extremely annoying that LR would not follow the settings that I've punched into my camera and would instead interpret the RAW image how it pleases. As a work around I'm now only importing JPG's into LR unless the image needs some special help in which case I'll process the RAW image in CS3.

Tom, did you noticed that everyone here have a signature listing their specific operating system gear etc? This is to help all helping you better. So, please go to User CP atop left of the forum to fill it...

That said, Lightroom ignoring in camera settings is by design. A RAW image is not an image at all; Just a file counting captured photons. This need to be interpreted somehow and Lightroom does it with ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) engine. The very same as working your RAWs with CS3!

As to "How it pleases", Lightroom use presets and you can tweak it to create you own presets that most please you or mimics the in camera created JPGs.

If you do not see much JPG talk is that because the bit depth of JPG is only 8 bits. So, tweaking a JPG in Lightroom is very limited. You may be interested in reading our forum about topics like JPG vs RAW and things like that. Here is an example.

Finally, welcome to the forum

 

[Call_me_Tom]

What...

Tom, did you noticed that everyone here have a signature listing their specific operating system gear etc? This is to help all helping you better. So, please go to User CP atop left of the forum to fill it...

My OS has nothing to do with my question but if you would like to know my gear...

That said, Lightroom ignoring in camera settings is by design.

Then the design is flawed. It is common knowledge that the programmers of LR shoot Canon and LR render Canon RAW images perfectly fine.

A RAW image is not an image at all; Just a file counting captured photons. This need to be interpreted somehow and Lightroom does it with ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) engine. The very same as working your RAWs with CS3!

I am completely aware of this. Are you aware that LR render Canon RAW images 1''' times more accurately then Nikon images?

As to "How it pleases", Lightroom use presets and you can tweak it to create you own presets that most please you or mimics the in camera created JPGs.

Modern day DSLR's are advanced and make adjustments from picture to picture...hell, I make adjustments from picture to picture. I started shooting on 35mm so we had to learn to get our image as accurate in camera as possible. I still believe in this train of thought as it cuts down on my PP time. I have a set of presets designed for my DSLR but they don't cover every picture. I doubt that they'd cover more then 1'% of my current pics as the more I use my camera the better I get at capturing the image in camera. I like to use LR to batch resize, and add a watermark. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to have to adjust the image back to the way you took it in the first place? And you can't batch adjust every picture that you took in a day; too many variables.

If you do not see much JPG talk is that because the bit depth of JPG is only 8 bits. So, tweaking a JPG in Lightroom is very limited. You may be interested in reading our forum about topics like JPG vs RAW and things like that.

I know the difference between JPG and RAW! A simple yes or no would have answered my question. Yes, LR interprets JPG images or no, it does not.

 

[Ian Farlow]

As I understand it, your camera is only applying your image settings (like saturation, sharpness, etc.) to the JPG files, not the RAW files. My Canon 1D Mark II N does the same thing. It is up to the RAW converter to do something with these tweaks, and Lightroom ignores them, as does Photoshop. Any settings applied to my images in my Canon are also ignored, so this is not a Nikon/Lightroom issue. Your JPG files processed by your camera will look different that the RAW files when imported into Lightroom.

There are those that have set out to create presets within Lightroom to mimic Nikon Capture NX or Canon DPP, but I have no idea how successful they have been.

By the way, Apple Aperture handles the RAW files the same a Lightroom does, so it's not that Lightroom is flawed, per se. You might want to see it do something else with the files, granted, but Lightroom (nor Aperture for that matter) is broken with this regard.

Now, sit back and wait for a Guru to prove me wrong...

 

[Brad Snyder]

Good luck getting a guru to reply to that ....

 

[Call_me_Tom]

Right, I know that LR and ACR ignore these settings which is a major gripe of Nikon owners when it comes to Adobe products. I use 4 different types of settings as a base and tweak from there depending on the situation, composition and lighting so no two pictures that I capture are the same in their rendering. Meaning, a template is almost useless; it needs to be in the code. And, it is flawed when Nikon images are rendered way off from what they were captured as but Canon folks images are much, much closer. A simple google search of ACR, Nikon or LR and Nikon would have gotten you thousands of hits in regards to this subject. Can someone please just answer my question as this is getting off topic. Does LR screw with JPG's when it imports them?

 

[ATJ-renamed]

Does LR screw with JPG's when it imports them?

I'm not a guru and I'm struggling with LR myself (Nikon shooter) but I don't believe LR changes anything in the files. If you import a JPG with "General Zeroed", the JPG should appear exactly as it does with CaptureNX or any other viewer.

 

[Kiwigeoff]

I'm not a guru and I'm struggling with LR myself (Nikon shooter) but I don't believe LR changes anything in the files. If you import a JPG with "General Zeroed", the JPG should appear exactly as it does with CaptureNX or any other viewer.

That is correct.

 

[Kiwigeoff]

My OS has nothing to do with my question but if you would like to know my gear...

Then the design is flawed. It is common knowledge that the programmers of LR shoot Canon and LR render Canon RAW images perfectly fine.
Where do you get that information? It is not my experience or knowledge. I have seen far more complaints about the rendering of Canon than Nikon.
I am completely aware of this. Are you aware that LR render Canon RAW images 1''' times more accurately then Nikon images?
Says who?
Modern day DSLR's are advanced and make adjustments from picture to picture...hell, I make adjustments from picture to picture. I started shooting on 35mm so we had to learn to get our image as accurate in camera as possible. I still believe in this train of thought as it cuts down on my PP time. I have a set of presets designed for my DSLR but they don't cover every picture. I doubt that they'd cover more then 1'% of my current pics as the more I use my camera the better I get at capturing the image in camera. I like to use LR to batch resize, and add a watermark. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to have to adjust the image back to the way you took it in the first place? And you can't batch adjust every picture that you took in a day; too many variables. I know the difference between JPG and RAW! A simple yes or no would have answered my question. Yes, LR interprets JPG images or no, it does not.

Lightroom/ACR doesn't read the camera manufacturers settings, except for white balance because that is what the manufacturers have decreed with proprietary settings - it is nothing to do with Adobe, other Raw Processors don't read camera settings either.
I f you want to have your gear in a link you will have to live with the consequences of that action.
It would however be helpful to have it displayed as others do - thanks.

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Hey hey, chill out guys. I disappear for a couple of days, and come back to find everyone debating the rights and wrongs of Lightroom's raw processing again... and now signatures too!!! :roll:

Tom, welcome to the forum. Glad to hear you're enjoying watching Lightroom evolve. As a version 1 software, we can all look forward to it continuing to improve. Reading through this thread for the first time, I would suggest that you tone your responses down a little in future, as we are all working hard to ensure a friendly and respectful atmosphere here, and nothing is to be gained by putting people's backs up.

As Andrew & Geoff confirmed, jpegs are imported without any adjustments, as long as you don't have an import preset set, or if you have to set to None or General Zero'd.

I do understand your frustration over Lightroom's different rendering of raw files, however I'm sure that as you've read back through some of those older threads, you'll have realised it's actually down to the camera manufacturer's not sharing their processing methods with third party raw processors. You'll also find you'll get exactly the same result in LR as you do processing the raw image in CS3, as the processing engine is identical. And of course, shooting jpeg, as you are, you do get the files as you expected from your camera.

I'm very interested in your statement that LR renders Canon RAW images 1''' times more accurately than Nikon images. Could you please point me to the scientific tests that have shown that? I'd be very interested to look into it further. (I am talking scientific reviews though - not user opinions from a forum.)

Finally, your signature - thank you for adding your gear to your signature, that's a lot of gear you have there! Unfortunately you may find that few people will actually click the link to see your gear - apart from anything else, I personally am quite careful about clicking links to unknown sites. And obviously not knowing your gear may affect the quality of answers to any future questions which ARE gear specific. I'll leave it with you though.

 

[Call_me_Tom]

Victoria Bampton[/B]]Reading through this thread for the first time, I would suggest that you tone your responses down a little in future, as we are all working hard to ensure a friendly and respectful atmosphere here, and nothing is to be gained by putting people's backs up.

It is difficult to convey ones intent or meaning at times but do not chastise me for the behavior of your senior members.

I asked a very specific and simple question that required a simple answer. Yes or no would have sufficed, instead I was lectured at nausea on the differences between a JPG and a RAW image...AND told to redo my signature...what did that have to do with my question?

Victoria Bampton[/B]]As Andrew & Geoff confirmed, jpegs are imported without any adjustments, as long as you don't have an import preset set, or if you have to set to None or General Zero'd.

Awesome, this is all that I asked for!

Victoria Bampton[/B]]I do understand your frustration over Lightroom's different rendering of raw files, however I'm sure that as you've read back through some of those older threads, you'll have realised it's actually down to the camera manufacturer's not sharing theirwprocessing methods with third party raw processors. You'll also find you'll get exactly the same result in LR as you dowprocessing the raw image in CS3, as the processing engine is identical. And of course, shooting jpeg, as you are, you do get the files as you expected from your camera.

I knew all of this already because I searched extensively. I'm not trying to sound abrasive but this has nothing to do with my question and this is exactly how this thread got so OT. I'm not steering this thread in that direction but others are and you are condoning it...

Victoria Bampton[/B]]I'm very interested in yourwstatement that LR renders Canon RAW images 1''' times more accurately than Nikon images. Could you please pointwme to the scientific tests that have shown that? I'd be very interested to look into it further. (I am talking scientific reviews though - not user opinions from a forum.)

That was a loaded question...stop trying to sound neutral.

I google searched this information and it honestly doesn't interest me enough to go back through the hundred of pages to find the pictures, diagrams and graphs; my question was answered.

Victoria Bampton[/B]]Finally, yourwsignature - thank you for adding your gear to your signature, that's a lot of gear you have there! Unfortunately you may find that few people will actually click the link to see your gear - apart from anything else, I personally am quite careful about clicking links to unknown sites. And obviously not knowing your gear may affect the quality of answers to any future questions which ARE gear specific. I'll leave it with you though.

My gear has been in my signature since I first signed up for an account here. If you are not going to click a link to view my gear how are you going to click a link in regards to LR/ACR rendering of RAW images? I don't run this site but any moderator worth his salt would have found a bot link and removed it.

Thanks to ATJ for being the only person in this whole thread who answered my question.


It is truly disappointing that I asked a very simple question and the first person to chime in steered this thread OT and forced me to explain and defend myself just to receive a simple answer. 11 posts later and this thread is still OT... I read all of the posts in this thread and the verbiage that was used, maybe you missed it but it was abrasive and geared to garner a reaction from me which it did.

 

[Call_me_Tom]

Lightroom/ACR doesn't read the camera manufacturers settings, except for white balance because that is what the manufacturers have decreed with proprietary settings - it is nothing to do with Adobe, other Raw Processors don't read camera settings either.
I f you want to have your gear in a link you will have to live with the consequences of that action.
It would however be helpful to have it displayed as others do - thanks.

I already new the LR/ACR stuff. That wasn't the question.

Do you really wish for me to put all of this in my sig? What does my sig have to do with my question?

Bodies:
-Nikon N7' FSLR
-Nikon D7' DSLR
-Nikon D2'' DSLR
-Nikon P5''' P&S
Lenses:
-Nikkor 28-8'mm f/3.5-5.6D AF
-Nikkor 75-3''mm f/4.5-5.6 AF
-Nikkor 12-24mm f/4 IF ED AF-S DX
-Nikkor 18-2''mm f/3.5-5.6G IF ED AF-S VR DX
Accessories:
-Cokin 58mm Circular Polarizer Filter
-Cokin 58mm UV Protector Filter
-Tiffen 62mm Circular Polarizer Filter
-Tiffen 62mm UV Protector Filter
-Digital Concepts 72mm UV Protector Filter
-Nikon SB-6'' Speedlight
-Quantaray QDC-9''WA Flash
-Quantaray 2x DG Tele-Converter
-D7' Vertical Grip
-Nikon MB-D2'' Vertical Grip
-Nikon EN-EL3a Batteries (4)
-Nikon EN-EL3e Batteries (2)
-Nikon EN-EL5 Battery
-Kirk BL-D2''G L-Bracket for D2'' w/MB-D2''
-Kingston 2gb CF Card
-Lexar 512mb CF Card
-ScanDisk 2gb CF Card
-Toshiba 4gb CF Card
-Toshiba 8gb CF Card
-Toshiba 4gb SD Card
Tripods:
-Giottos MH 13'1 Ball Head
-Giottos GB 1'6' Tripod
Bags/Case:
-Tamrac Blue Model 5371 Travel Pack
-Lowepro Compu Trekker Plus AW Backpack
-Pelican 161' Green Case (2)
-Beseler B71' Shoulder Camera Bag
Post Processing:
-Adobe Photoshop CS3 Design Premium
-Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 1.3
-Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 1.1 Portable
-Imagenomic Noiseware
-Imagenomic Portraiture
-Imagenomic RealGrain
-Alien Skin Blow Up
-PixelGenius PhotoKit
-PixelGenius Sharpener
-PixelGenius Color
-Canon PIXMA MP16' Printer
-Seagate 5''gb External HDD
-Seagate 16'gb External HDD
-Western Digital 5''gb External HDD
Wish List:
-Markins M1'L ball head $34'
-Gitzo GT253' 6X tripod $535
-Nikkor 8'-4''mm f/4.5-5.6 ED AF VR $153'
-Kirk NC8'-4'' Lens Collar $15'
-Nikonians 1" Leg Wraps $45
-Hoya 77mm UV Haze Multi-Coated Filter $45

 

[Victoria Bampton]

Ok, time for a truce, right? We ARE going to keep the atmosphere here friendly.

Tom, it is indeed difficult to get the tone right in writing, and that is a problem we all run into at times. Some of your statements, such as "Then the design is flawed. It is common knowledge that the programmers of LR shoot Canon and LR render Canon RAW images perfectly fine." appear quite hostile, so I'm simply asking that you, along with anyone else involved in this thread, bear it in mind and tone it down a little in future.

The request for signature information may have been a little overzealous, but was in line with the rules of the forum, stated here: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/showthread.php?t=29

That was a loaded question...stop trying to sound neutral.

It wasn't intended as a loaded question, and I am neutral on this one. I process thousands of images each year for top professional photographers worldwide, on a mix of ALL brands of camera, so I'm interested to see your research proving your point. Don't worry if you can't though.

I'm going to close this thread now as the original question has been answered - if you wish to carry on discussing this off-forum, you can PM me or any other mod by clicking on our names.