LR 3 Beta 2 instability with Luminance NR?

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Fido

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Anyone testing LR 3 Beta 2? I'm using the XP release fairly intensively. Whenever I use the new Luminance Noise Reduction feature (smoothing), the app gets unstable and can crash.

Here's what happens. When developing a photo, after adding NR, the more I work with it and the more other steps I add to the history, the slower the app gets. It gets so slow it starts to freeze for up to a minute a time. Cropping can 1' to 2' seconds to make each change, for example. Then eventually the cursor may disappear, the banner on top flashes, menus don't draw properly, the cursor disappears or changes to an hourglass (the death rattle), then finally the window banner says "Not Responding" and it crashes. I've been carefully working around it, avoiding using NR, at least until the last step in developing. But what a pain. It seems tragic that they couldn't get it stable prior to release. Or maybe it's just me. Are other people having the same problems?
 
Yes I started to notice some inconsistent behaviour last night on my two Win7 machines, one 32bit the other 64. Same issues on both in relation to the NR function, though not to the point of crashing. My problem is that, after applying luminance NR in the develop module at 1:1 view the change renders OK but when I revert to a 'fit' view the rendered image does NOT show the change. Switch to Library module, and even at 'fit' view I can see the change. Also things do seem less responsive, though I haven't yet made a connection with the Luminance function. Was planning on doing some further investigation over the weekend....

Re the stability issue....well that's why it's still a beta. It would only be tragic if these problems occurred on a GA release.
 
Luminance NR will only show in Fit view in Develop on images it expects to be really noisy (i.e. high ISO) as it's massively processor intensive to keep applying. Library module works differently, as Fit view shows you a downsized version of a fixed preview.

The new process version may be a little less responsive as the new tools are very processor intensive.

Fido, it'll be interesting if you can narrow down the step to you to that point. It is a beta, and it sounds like you may be running into some kind of hardware specific issue, as there have been very mixed reports, with many having no problems at all and others having distinct performance issues.
 
[quote author=Victoria Bampton link=topic=9433.msg63563#msg63563 date=126959'795]
Luminance NR will only show in Fit view in Develop on images it expects to be really noisy (i.e. high ISO) as it's massively processor intensive to keep applying. Library module works differently, as Fit view shows you a downsized version of a fixed preview.

The new process version may be a little less responsive as the new tools are very processor intensive.


[/quote]

Thanks for that explanation, Victoria....I can stop worrying about it now. TBH, I only really noticed it last night as I was pushing the Luminance NR to its limit to see what would happen. Presumably it also works that way in 2.6? And you say 'high ISO'....is there a particular threshold limit for that?

Re the responsiveness, I have to say that there seems to be a general 'slugishness' in the operation of the sliders in Develop....also when switching from image to image in Develop the time to free up the sliders seems more erratic, less consistent, every now and then one image will take seconds longer to free up. Didn't notice these effects in the first beta, and it could easily be a number of pc-related issues. Will have a deeper look over the weekend.....
 
2.6 doesn't show it at all in Develop except at 1:1 view. As for high ISO, it varies by camera. TBH, I'm still finding the intelligence of the will-it-won't-it-show a little offputting! ;)
 
Fido, quick question, what vintage is your nVidia?

There were some device setting specific issues with some older nVidia adapters. If your setup is a couple of years old, have a look at: http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?w=92938852%4'N''&q=nvidia . I believe we've discussed it here at this forum as well.
 
This is all very interesting info, thanks everybody! Yes, I'm aware it's a beta and therefore not perfect. For me though, Luminance NR fails nearly 1''% of the time, though I continue to stuggle with it, the masochist that I am. Sometimes I get lucky and it works OK for several pictures, albeit very sluggishly. Typically, it bogs down, taking 1'-3' seconds to respond to control changes like crops, rotations, zooms, pull-down menus, etc. As an engineer in the SW industry for 2'+ years, it feels more like an alpha build than a beta release. But don't get me wrong, I think it's wonderful and smart of Adobe to have such an extensive beta program - more power to everybody.

Anyway, interesting about system compatibility. My PC is indeed several years old, the last of the great single-core systems. XP Pro SP2, 3.4GHz P4, nVidia GeForce 66'' (passively cooled, yea!), Asus P5WD2-E motherboard, Intel 975x Northbridge, ICH7R Southbridge, 4GB PC8'' SDRAM, 1.5TB Seagate SATA.

I use other processor intensive applications regularly so I'm pretty confident I'm not seeing memory or processor errors. I'd welcome other reports of strangeness and any possible work-arounds. For me, when I notice it starts to bog down, I just lay off for awhile and let it finish. If I just continue messing with controls, it eventually locks up and crashes.

I notice the CPU percentage is maxed out when this happens so the CPU is busy doing something. The first LR 3 Beta (1?) didn't exhibit any of this behavior for me. One thing that would help would be if LR had a progress indicator to indicate when it's busy. The "Loading..." indicator only comes up for me when it's processing (ie, developing) a photo right after I select it. This seems like a misnomer to me since what it's really doing is processing the loaded image, right? But during normal developing, when it's busy processing, there's no indication. For subtle control changes, it can be impossible to tell if it's done. The only possible work-around is to use the Windows Task Manager and watch the CPU percentage - ugh. Ideas?
 
I had a very similar setup, with similar problems, some time ago. If you haven't already, have a look at those nVidia settings, that made a huge difference for me. (I've since upgraded hardware.)
 
Brad you have been using the Beta for some time for real work, have you seen any of these issues ? I ask because I am considering using the Beta 2 myself. I'm not pro so can afford to take a few risks with my time if LR3 turns out not to be compatible with the Beta when it is finally released.
 
No, I've been pretty happy. As I said, I currently have about 9'% of my library photos in 3Beta2. I haven't used 2.x for real work since 3Beta1 came out. I haven't seen any instability issues. Occasional sluggishness, and UI jitter, but no deal breakers.

I do have separate raw backups for safety. All my original 2.x catalogs are archived, for recovery purposes if needed. My work is just barely pro, mostly hobby for beer money, so no huge risk beyond my time invested. I think I'm well prepared for a total meltdown, but I don't expect more than minor rendering incompatibilities, that frankly I rarely notice. If I have any complicated color issues, like you've been going thru with your Nikon renderings, I have to have my wife look at them anyway. I'm not colorblind, but if there's a visual concept similar to 'tone-deaf', I've definitely got that. :)

I just fooled around with the noise reduction and sharpening, and didn't notice any problems. I'm a upper-middle tier configuration Win7 machine. Nothing fancy storage wise, just iSata and eSata, with some USB2 for archives/backups.

I'm happy enough, YMMV.
 
Thanks, I'll import all my images into LR3b2 and give it a go. I have backups of everything so I can easily go back. I rarely touched the Beta1 but have been using Beta2 for a couple of days and now don't want to go back :)

My colour issues are an unhealthy obsession I think !

I haven't seen any performance issues (yet) either on my iMac / Macbook Pro.
 
Just to clarify....I'm not seeing much in the way of general instability (i.e. crashes, freezes), just an occasional oddity which I just put down to the fact this is beta code. Now that Victoria has clarified my original issue with the rendering of a Luminance NR adjustment in 'Fit' view, my current only concern is the sluggishness in the develop module. Whilst this is mainly perceptual, not measureable, it just SEEMS less fluid and responsive than 2.6. I wish I had spent more time with the first beta then I could better judge if I am seeing a degredation from b1 to b2. Simply scrolling through the film-strip in the develop module, and watching the text, value boxes, sliders and buttons in the RH adjustment panels change from 'lights on' to 'lights off' then back to 'lights on' again is noticeably different....the lights go off not all at once but staggered, usually in two steps but sometimes more, some text boxes first (but not all of them) then the rest. Can't be sure if the elapsed time from time of pressing right arrow key to lights on on the next image is greater on LR3b2 than LR2.6....but because of the staggered effect it certainly seems that way.

Overall though, what I am experienced is in no way a show-stopper....its marginal degredation at best. My own setup is a reasonable spec for a 4/5 year old PC, so I'm not expecting lightning performance. My replacement desktop is in the process of being built and I'm definitely expecting better things from that!!

I'm also seriously considering making the jump to b3 permanently, just trying to get my head around the issues surrounding that....I may be asking you guys a question or two about that in the next few days. I don't want to go back either!!
 
Thanks TNG.

I transferred my images like this...

1) In LR2 I selected all images and did Write to XMP (then closed LR2)
2) I imported all images in LR3b but kept them in their current folders (embedded previews only)
3) I auto sync'd the RAW processing to v 2'1' for all my images.
4) Generated default previews.
5) Selected all images and did write to XMP (then switched on auto write to xmp)

I still have to find a way to move collections across (I think this may have to manual, in LR3 you can export collection definitions, but not in LR2)

I also don't have my VC's yet but I may just export them as jpegs as I don't have many, or I may wait until LR3 is released and can export them as a catalog along with the collections.

I have also updated previews in my DNG files and noticed that it doesn't fill my trash with the old versions like it did in LR2.
 
Nik, thanks for the step-by-step....

Have been arguing with myself for a day or so about whether to import all of my images into LR3b2, or to pick a natural break-point and start from there. Being only a hobbyist, never felt the need to create XMP sidecars as a matter of course, so just not sure that I want to have to create thousands of these files and have them hanging around. Whereas if I wait for the LR3 release version I'll presumably be able to avoid that by having LR3 convert my 2.6 catalog. The argument I'm having is between instict and logic.....instinctively I don't like the idea of all those extra files, logically I can't see a problem with it! :D The other slight concern is the loss of the develop history when importing using the sidecar files, probably no big problem in reality though....

Re the Collections, for now I'm not seeing a problem with being unable to move them across. I used to use collections as a substitute for keywords, but having now (after heeding the expert advice from the experts here :)) implemented a 'proper' Keyword scheme it sort of ended up looking not dissimilar to my collections structure (albeit much more extensive and flexible). So for now I'm not really using static collections much at all, so am not that bothered if I have to leave them behind and start again.

Bought a 5D MkII last month, so for now have gone back to that as a start point and imported those using your process, and will use LR3b2 for all shots from that point. I expect I'll give in eventually and import the lot.....

It's good that Adobe have 'fixed' that problem of filling the trash can when you update DNG files...
 
You could search & delete the xmp files after the import. Yes you do lose your history but I'm not that bothered about it to be honest.

I have also decided to go back to NEFs from now on and not use DNG. I was backing up my NEFs and using DNG and it was just taking up so much space. Imports are slower too so I decided to live with XMPs (or not if you like) and save space and time.
 
[quote author=sizzlingbadger link=topic=9433.msg63626#msg63626 date=12698'6279]
You could search & delete the xmp files after the import. Yes you do lose your history but I'm not that bothered about it to be honest.

I have also decided to go back to NEFs from now on and not use DNG. I was backing up my NEFs and using DNG and it was just taking up so much space. Imports are slower too so I decided to live with XMPs (or not if you like) and save space and time.
[/quote]

I think I've learnt more about how to use LR in the couple of months since joining this forum that in the previous I don't know how many years ever since I bought my first copy of Rawshooter! Until you said I could delete the XMPs after importing into LR3b2, it never occurred to me that they were disposable in that way...like a light being switched on! Bit of a Homer Simpson DOH! moment there. :-[ Thanks again.
 
Thanks Denis....but somedays I think I need a much brighter light that that! :D :D :D
 
Of course, now why didn't I think of that? Onset of senility I fear! :eek:
 
Well, weren't we talking about instability with luminance? As Victoria pointed out, you need power to make it shine. ;)

Think that the machine you used to run Lightroom 1.' is now at least 3 years old and, if it was already a 5 years old machine at the time then Lightroom 3.' probably won't fly that fast...
 
Actually, having now been using the beta for a few more days (exclusively) I have to say that I find the 'sluggishnes' to be less obvious than when I first started.....just getting used to it I suppose. For a 5 year old machine it's doing OK, have just imported a couple of thousand images from my 4'D and it's just trawling through the preview rendering process (standard not 1:1) and I would say it's at about 7'% CPU activity. No it doesn't fly that fast, but then nor do I any longer!

New PC is 'in testing' according to the configurator's web-site, so I'm hopeful it'll arrive next week. It will be interesting to see the performance on an i7 with 12GB of RAM and lots of internal drives for separation of LR 'components'. Am very much looking forward to it....
 
LR 3 beta 2 remains painfully slow/unstable on my machine. Perhaps I'm a fool for tolerating it but still, it's making this project happen and fortunately I'm almost through (whew!).

My machine is several years old but it's fairly fast (3.4 GHz P4, NVidia GeForce 66'', 4GB fast SDRAM). It's not only unstable in Develop for luminance NR but also for practically everything else. Luminance is much less stable, though. No instability problems with any other apps so I think the system is reliable.

As a work-around for the NR issue, I proceed through my workflow and do NR last. If I need to make later changes, I disable NR, make the changes, and remember to re-enable NR. That helps a lot and causes fewer crashes. But it's still terribly slow and locks up sometimes. Haven't lost data but I back up my catalog regularly. I always shut down other apps while using it. In zoomed views (when it's not acting up) the NR slider works more-or-less instantly. In fit view, however, it typically locks up the machine for 1'-3' seconds. And every time I make additional changes to anything (crop, etc) it take 1'-3' seconds to respond. This is typical behavior so you see why I disable NR. But even with out NR, this kind of thing does happen, but only every few minutes rather than every time.

Here are some typical symptoms I get working with Develop for Beta 2 (not Beta 1):
* Extremely sluggish working with many controls. Undo can take 1'-3' seconds per step, including history. Much worse with NR in the history
* Can take 1'-3' seconds to go from Develop to Library
* As it really starts to act up in Develop, the main app window banner flashes for 5-1' seconds at a time as it's rendering images. Sometimes the text info overlay in upper left corner of image flashes as a white box
* Graphic artifacts on the screen from text info overlay. The text becomes superimposed on the leftmost panel. This stays permanently stuck on the screen on top of anything that would appear there (ie Library panels, etc). It remain superimposed on the screen permanently (right on the windows desktop), thus covering all apps like graffiti.
* Exporting is impractical because 2'% of the image files are written with no data (' KB length). This includes files where absolutely nothing was done in Developer. I see no reason why LR should barf on these. Perhaps it locks up trying to render previous files. Anyone else have problems exporting?
* Slideshow typically crashes the machine after 2-3 minutes. I haven't related it yet to images that use NR. The machine continues working in the background (I see the drive light blinking) but the windows cursor freezes and it never recovers (I must physically power down the computer). Seems funny that LR's slideshow even displays the cursor during a slideshow (shouldn't it disappear?)
* Other, possibly unrelated to NR: the Crop Aspect ratios sometimes wrong. For ex, 5x7 can be something random. I must exit and restart LR to fix it. Also, sometimes crashes hard in Library when I change sort options (like sort by Label Color).

I've been using LR 3 beta for 8+ hours a day for the past few weeks. I hope the final release remains backwards compatible as I've made a large investment. When I started this project with LR 3 beta 1, it was reasonably fast for me and no significant performance/reliability problems. LR 3 beta 2 is horrific. I can't regress to Beta 1 at this point, especially since I've integrated luminance NR into my workflow.

LR 3 is slow for me in the Library, too. This may be related to so many images using NR, I dunno. The more images in a collection, the slower it is. For collections with over 1'' images, it's dog slow. To merely select an image takes 2-3 seconds. So routinely working with the Library wastes a huge amount of my day. Do other people have such a painfully slow experience with LR 3 Beta 2? I don't think Beta 1 was this slow.

BTW, when LR crashes in XP and you click "report" in the error dialog box, does this report actually go to the beta team at Adobe? Or in Microsoft's circular file?

One more thing, LR won't give any indication it's "processing" normally. How the heck are user's supposed to know when the app is busy? Most apps have a progress bar or hourglass cursor. With LR, you just have to wait and wait and take it on faith that subtle changes have been rendered. I've had some success with the XP Task Manager (CPU %) but it's not very practical. What do other people do?

Anyone know if Adobe's LR beta program allows certain testers access to daily builds? Also, is it possible that my build is being remotely updated? I say this because sometimes in Develop, on the lower right corner, I get an Exclamation Point button. When I press this it says that new process changes have just occurred and this may result in changes to the appearance of the image. I think it's saying that certain image processing algorithm code has just been updated (but how?). It then asks me to preview the changes (X/Y) yet it never gives me the chance to either approve or disapprove of the changes. I actually don't know whether it stays with the legacy algorithms or uses the latest version, at that point. I've never seen much of a difference. I'm certain that the changes it's referring to aren't between Beta 1 and Beta 2 because some of these images had never been Developed in Beta 1 (ie, no prior history). And it's only happened a few times out of 1''' photos I've developed. Anyone?

- Chris

ps. this thread could be moved from General to Beta discussion
 
Chris, post your system specs on the Adobe beta forums - there's a thread where they're tracking some performance issues with beta 2 that appears to be probably a hardware incompatibility that they're trying to track down. http://forums.adobe.com/thread/6'66'4
 
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