Looking for a decent 35mm Slide / 35mm negative / Photo / Photo Negative Scanner

[rozel]

Lightroom Version Number

LRC 11.0

Operating System

1. Windows 10
2. Android

Hi all

First of all I must thank the people who have helped me with LRC in setting up my workflow. I am using LRC now to sort and edit my huge digital photo collection covering the last 22/23 years. I have the recommended 1-2-3 backup strategy in place and am at the point where I am switching my Cloud based storage from Dropbox to Google Drive / Photos. I use Syncbackpro v10 for the backing up to the cloud and to a further internal drive on my PC. I have also in the last few weeks managed to to integrate Teamviewer to work alongside LRC, whilst I am away so I can basically export my on the road stuff to a "Not Sorted" folder on my PC - I'm using LR Android whilst away and editing using LRC when I get back home. Currently I'm using a Canon Eos 90. I don't want to use Adobe Cloud, before someone chips in - and I positively hate "syncing" between folders etc - backup yes but not syncing as you can easily lose stuff. My primary aim whilst away is to export to my photos to my PC's "Not Sorted" folder to work on later and transfer to my catalogue(s). I hate amassing photos on a lot of devices as it takes time to sort duplicates out etc. I also transfer the photos to another external drive based in one of my Media Players, to view my completed work on a large screen TV. So I've been very busy working things out for the 2 years since last posting - but I definately would not have benefitted by using LRC if I hadn't come here - so a massive thank you.

OK to my question (lol) - So having backed up and edited my digital photos taken during the past 22/23 years, my attention is now turning to sorting my huge collection of Paper Photos & negatives for the 20 year period previous and then all my other family photos dating back to when I was born (1953) and well before that too.

I have tested out my Flatbed Scanner - an Epson Perfection 1650 and whilst it produces decent results, this scanner is really quite old. I am using Windows 10 and have paired the scanner to the VueScan software but I am sure there are better Slide and paper Photo scanners (along with associated negatives) out there that would do the job better (in higher quality) and much faster too.

So please can anyone give me some pointers as to what to go for?

Thank you

Paul

 

[Johan Elzenga]

DigitalICE intrigues me and I'm wondering if it's use can improve my scans to compensate for it only having 3.4 DMax?

No, DigitalICE has nothing to do with the DMax of the scanner and does not change it in any way. Multi-exposure can do that, however.

 

[Paul_DS256]

What y'all think?

If you can download trials, I would suggest:

1. Figure out from your research what you're workflow will be. What will be done in the Scanning software and what you will do in LrC.
2. Select a number slides/negatives and trial/compare the results.

 

[rozel]

Thanks both, most helpful. Ok so I started with Epson Photo Scan - I believe it's the same as Epson Scan - see 1st attachment. First attempt at scanning 4 x negatives in a strip resulted in failure - the software bombed - guessing I was far too ambitious with settings. It was going to take 21 mins just to scan 1 neg. So turned things down a bit - see second attachment. In the first attempt DPI was set to 9600 dpi. Anyhow reason for posting is how do I save the scans down? I cannot see anywhere where the settings are for "Save Destination". In the attachments you'll see "Destination" doesn't have any settings associated with it?

Help!

 

[rozel]

Please ignore above post - seems when you exit the scanning window, the one with Normal & Thumbnail preview options, another window pops up making save down options a doddle. As I mentioned my first attempt bombed and the pop up didn't come up as the prog had crashed.

But much learning going on now

 

[Replytoken]

If you can download trials, I would suggest:

1. Figure out from your research what you're workflow will be. What will be done in the Scanning software and what you will do in LrC.
2. Select a number slides/negatives and trial/compare the results.

Can't agree more, especially since I am a big believer in GIGO. Let the tools do what they do best, but try and do as much up front as makes sense. When I started a scanning project in 2020, which has been put on hold for the time being, I played around quite a bit to get a good workflow. Two things that you may or may not have thought of are color space and bit depth. I chose to scan in 16-bit depth, and I believe that the Epson software did not support that depth, but Vuescan did.

--Ken

 

[rozel]

Great advice and yes I'm experimenting at the moment. A few questions that have arisen: -

1. Why scan in 16-bit and not 48-bit?
2. How to achieve Multi-Exposure and which software supports it?
3. I've read Paul's Work flow and 2 things I'd like to learn, so wonder if you could point me to suitable tutorials: -
a. how do I automate save down to reflect naming conventions or do I have to name manually?
b. I've heard about EXIFTOOL re Metadata - again any chance there are tutorials out there?
4. How can I learn about all fim sizes?

Really chuffed you are staying with me

 

[Paul_DS256]

I cannot see anywhere where the settings are for "Save Destination". In the attachments you'll see "Destination" doesn't have any settings associated with it?

It looks like you are using Epson Scan which is what I use.

What I noticed you are missing is the File Save Settings icon.

Click on Configuration and make sure File Savings is checked

The you should be able click on File Saving to set up sequential saving.

 

[Paul_DS256]

1. Why scan in 16-bit and not 48-bit?

I think you mean 24 vs 48 and it comes down to the amount of information you are recording to help in post work.

2. How to achieve Multi-Exposure and which software supports it?

Not sure what you are trying to do

3. I've read Paul's Work flow and 2 things I'd like to learn, so wonder if you could point me to suitable tutorials: -
a. how do I automate save down to reflect naming conventions or do I have to name manually?

You can set a prefix in the Epson File Save with an incremental number for each scan. I used the prefix to identify the 'batch' and if it's slide, negative or print.

b. I've heard about EXIFTOOL re Metadata - again any chance there are tutorials out there?

It is useful if you are comfortable with command line work and batch files/scripting. I use EXIFTOOL to set a number of values. I think you could also do that in LrC Metadata but I started using EXIFTOOL before LrC. If you are interested, and use Windows, I can share examples of my script.

4. How can I learn about all fim sizes?

If you are talking about holders for the film, Epson will list the sizes of film it supports. If you find a need for other sizes, Google and you will likely find someone who has McQuivered one. Keep in mind that the holder holds file slightly off the surface of the glass. You need to replicate this in a jig to keep focus.

Here's a couple of links for identifying films:

• https://digitalcopycat.com/slide_negative_identification.html
• http://www.pearsonimaging.com/articles/about/filmformats.html
• https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc25.htm This one is useful when you only have the stock number on the film.

Here's a printing/scanning DPI calculator that may be useful.

 

[rozel]

Thanks @Paul_DS256 a lot of good info.

No, DigitalICE has nothing to do with the DMax of the scanner and does not change it in any way. Multi-exposure can do that, however.

This was what I was referring to given the DMax is 3.4 for the V600, I thought doing this could compensate no?

16-bit was mentioned earlier but Ahh I understand about scanning in the different bit-rates now, I think, I assume the higher the rate the more potential to use LRC no?

 

[GaryG]

I agree with what the review had to say about Epson Scan and VueScan. Epson Scan will crash and there have been a few times that I've had to reinstall it in order to get it to start. VueScan does have frequent updates, and the last update for my version of Epson Scan was in 2020.

I noticed that you had selected Unsharp Mask in Epson Scan. From the articles, I've read you don't want to use it if you plan to edit the scanned images because it can make changes that cannot be undone by editing.

Multi-Exposure is a VueScan feature for transparencies only. It does two scan passes and each pass uses a different exposure. If Epson Scan has the feature, it isn't with my version.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

1. Why scan in 16-bit and not 48-bit?

That’s the same. 16 bits/color is 48 bits per pixel.

 

[Replytoken]

That’s the same. 16 bits/color is 48 bits per pixel.

Johan elaborated before I could, but yes, 16-bits/color is also known as 48-bit. As I also mentioned, I have a cheaper flatbed scanner with Epson Scan software and it did not allow me to scan 48-bit tiff files. I am assuming they have different versions of their software with their models, so that may not be an issue. But if it is, you will be working in 8-bit/channel (24-bit) from the beginning. This may or may not be an issue to you, but it is generally best to work with more information, and it is not recommended trying to re-save an 8-bit file to 16-bits, as this can cause other issues.

One more item as I look at Paul's screenshots above, you should check your file sizes and scan times as part of your decision making process. It is quite easy to settle on some really high resolution number in theory, only to learn that each scan will take 20-30 minutes and occupy a gigabyte of space on your hard drive.

Good luck,

--Ken

 

[Conrad Chavez]

That’s the same. 16 bits/color is 48 bits per pixel.

Specifically, Rozel:
The actual term is 16 bits per channel.
An RGB color image has three channels.
16 bits/channel times 3 channels = 48 bits to store all three channels in the image.

Being precise about the terminology is important, because 16 bits per channel results in different total bits per image depending on what color mode you used to save the image:
16 bits/channel for grayscale/monochrome (1 channel) = 16 bits total.
16 bits/channel for RGB color (3 channels) = 48 bits total.
16 bits/channel for CMYK color (4 channels) = 64 bits total.

Another reason to be precise about channels vs total is that if you hear the term “32-bit images” today, they are not lower quality than “48-bit” scans for the reasons above. 32 bits per channel images can potentially contain enough dynamic range for what are called High Dynamic Range (HDR) images, and if you wanted to compare those to “48-bit” (total) images you would similarly have to multiply 32 bits times the number of channels, so for an RGB image, 32 bits * 3 channels = 96 bits total, compared to a 48-bit total (16 bits per channel * 3) image.

No, DigitalICE has nothing to do with the DMax of the scanner and does not change it in any way. Multi-exposure can do that, however.

This was what I was referring to given the DMax is 3.4 for the V600, I thought doing this could compensate no?

No. The reason it cannot is DigitalICE is very powerful at fixing one thing: Surface defects on film, such as dust and scratches. Some versions of DigitalICE also fix other kinds of defects like color fading, but all of them are completely unrelated to DMax. So DigitalCE cannot improve DMax.

16-bit was mentioned earlier but Ahh I understand about scanning in the different bit-rates now, I think, I assume the higher the rate the more potential to use LRC no?

It isn’t really a “bit rate” (the term “rate” is used in time-based media such as digital audio and video), and yes, more bits per channel can potentially provide more editing flexibility in Lightroom. But only if the scanner and the original media are good enough to fill it!

For example, prints have much lower dynamic range than film, and different film types have different dynamic ranges. If a print doesn’t have much dynamic range in it, like a 1980s snapshot print with clipped highlights and shadows, printed on an automated one-hour photo processor that was run by grocery store employees, you might not gain anything by scanning at more bits. Scanning at 16 bits per pixel helps the most when scanning good film stocks exposed well by an advanced or professional photographer, and stored properly. Or maybe when scanning a high-quality print made carefully in a darkroom, or by a professional photo lab on top grade paper.

I have hundreds of family photos shot on cheap consumer films, exposed badly by primitive exposure systems in old point-and-shoot cameras. Or, they are so faded or color-shifted that they have lost a lot of quality/dynamic range already. For originals of that low quality, scanning at 16 bits per channel won’t get you visibly better dynamic range than 8 bits per channel. You can have a scanner with a high DMax rating, but you will probably only see the difference on your originals that actually have significant dynamic range in them.

 

[rozel]

Thank you and thank you again - tons of very useful stuff and I shall be ever grateful - what a good forum this is Just a couple more questions please, if I may (in bold).

1. Figure out from your research what you're workflow will be. What will be done in the Scanning software and what you will do in LrC.
2. Select a number slides/negatives and trial/compare the results.

This is exactly what I'm doing - going to spend a couple of weeks for this. Yesterday I did my first scans - extremely hit and excessive miss! I used Epson Scan (/ Epson Photo Scan - still not sure the difference here) and Epson Scan 2 and didn't research any of my settings - just acted on instinct, hence my first attempt resulted in a crash as mentioned earlier.

What I noticed you are missing is the File Save Settings icon.

So do I take it that the "Save Destination" pops up automatically when the "Save Settings" box is ticked? And what does "Work Area" mean - is this the "Save Folder" on my PC?

Here's a couple of links for identifying films:

• https://digitalcopycat.com/slide_negative_identification.html
• http://www.pearsonimaging.com/articles/about/filmformats.html
• https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc25.htm This one is useful when you only have the stock number on the film.

Here's a printing/scanning DPI calculator that may be useful.

Seriously very helpful Paul - I shall read those articles very carefully later today.

I noticed that you had selected Unsharp Mask in Epson Scan. From the articles, I've read you don't want to use it if you plan to edit the scanned images because it can make changes that cannot be undone by editing.

Multi-Exposure is a VueScan feature for transparencies only. It does two scan passes and each pass uses a different exposure. If Epson Scan has the feature, it isn't with my version.

Thanks Gary - I didn't know what this was so left it selected by default, I think. But good tip! Ahha! Multi-Exposure is supported in VueScan, that's excellent. Cannot see this in Epson Scan and I'm using the latest version, I think.

Can't agree more, especially since I am a big believer in GIGO

Wow! I didn't know what that meant until I googled lol! But I absolutely agree! A lot of garbage coming out right now haha!

The actual term is 16 bits per channel.
An RGB color image has three channels.
16 bits/channel times 3 channels = 48 bits to store all three channels in the image.

Being precise about the terminology is important, because 16 bits per channel results in different total bits per image depending on what color mode you used to save the image:
16 bits/channel for grayscale/monochrome (1 channel) = 16 bits total.
16 bits/channel for RGB color (3 channels) = 48 bits total.
16 bits/channel for CMYK color (4 channels) = 64 bits total.

Ok - this has turned into (for me) a very confusing matter. In Epson Scan, selecting File Type, I chose 48-bit Colour. Is this correct for best quality? Or does it depend on what I'm scanning? That was good inf @Conrad Chavez - but to simplify I just need to know what setting I ought to choose in Epson Scan and VueScan.

Today I'm going to have a similar start with VueScan - leaving the same film negatives in the holder as they were yesterday. This way I'll be able to make a good comparison to yesterdays results.

 

[rozel]

Update: - Further to the above regarding multiple exposure - yes Vuescan supports but the V600 seems not to. Apparently Silverfast supports this with the V600 but I don't see how as the scanners needs variable CCD exposure time and I don't think this is supported by my scanner

 

[GaryG]

If you decide to use VueScan, I suggest getting the book “The VueScan Bible” by Sasha Steinhoff. It describes all of the VueScan options, and the author says when to use LR or Photoshop instead of an option.

Regarding Multi-Exposure with VueScan, Mr. Steinhoff states that it might not help much with a good scanner because they have good dynamic range, and it can help a cheap scanner with low dynamic range. He also mentions a possible side effect of Multi-Exposure is a blurred image because the scanner isn’t positioning itself correctly. Based on what he has said, Multi-Exposure is a software feature and not a scanner feature.

 

[GaryG]

I forgot to answer your Work Area question. According to the Help for the Configuration display, it displays the folder for saving the temporary files for some image operations and the free space for the drive for that folder. I have mine set to the C drive with no folder specified.

 

[rozel]

Cheers @GaryG -just ordered the VueScan Bible via eBay. Reason: I've played around a bit with VueScan today and found it better and intuitively more friendly than the Epson software. I've also tried to play with the demo version of Silverfast but no - not user friendly however I try.

So VueScan is and will be my scanning software of choice - I'm used to it a little already through using it for document scanning with my Perfection 1650. That said I could not find the option for Multiple Exposure. I know where it ought to be, having googled, but using by and large the default settings, this option doesn't appear and I think this is because the option is linked to the scanner - if the scanner doesn't support it, then VueScan doesn't reveal the option. That is unless someone can tell me otherwise. I am always suspicious and think the blurred image thing is an excuse by the owner of the software, who I've read can be a bit off-hand at times. But who knows, there could be a setting, which when enabled, may bring up the Multiple Exposure option?

That said, given the age of my photos, slides and negatives, I'm not sure if Multiple Exposure would be of any benefit anyway. But VueScan here we go - and I like the way you can automatically pretext file names for batch scanning too

 

[rozel]

Ahhh - just found this by googling: -

Input | Multi exposure​

This option provides a way to get additional detail from the darker parts of the scanned image. It is available on scanners that are able to increase the CCD exposure time.

A first pass is performed as usual with the normal RGB exposure. This will be an appropriate exposure for the image as a whole. Then a second pass is performed with a longer exposure, which can reveal additional detail in dark areas not captured in the first pass. VueScan then merges the results of the two by choosing from either the first or second exposure pass.

Professional Option: This option is displayed when the scanner can control the CCD exposure time and when scanning slide film (not Color negative, B/W negative or Microfilm).

I've been scanning Colour Negatives so perhaps when I experiment with my Slides / Slide Films, this option will throw up - I cannot try now until tomorrow - what do you think?

 

[rozel]

Update: I couldn't wait so just checked and voila! The option is there when you select Slide Film - happy bunny!

 

[Conrad Chavez]

Ok - this has turned into (for me) a very confusing matter. In Epson Scan, selecting File Type, I chose 48-bit Colour. Is this correct for best quality? Or does it depend on what I'm scanning? That was good inf @Conrad Chavez - but to simplify I just need to know what setting I ought to choose in Epson Scan and VueScan.

There’s more than one way to go about this, depending on how you want to work.

If you want to try to keep file sizes down and save storage space up front, you can choose the bit depth based on the quality of the original. Maybe for basic snapshot prints you choose 8 bits per channel, and when scanning good film you choose 16 bits per channel. Or, you can set it for 8 bpc all the time except for extremely valuable photos, where you set it to 16 bpc.

If you have lots of storage, you can scan everything at 16 bpc so you don’t have to think about when to change it. Later, if you want to save space, you can run the less important images through Adobe Bridge or Photoshop to batch-convert them down to 8 bpc. (If you do this and want to make sure Lightroom Classic doesn't lose the links, make sure the 8 bpc replacements end up with the same filenames in the same folders.)

 

[Paul_DS256]

So do I take it that the "Save Destination" pops up automatically when the "Save Settings" box is ticked? And what does "Work Area" mean - is this the "Save Folder" on my PC?

If you follow my instructions you should see the File Save icon. Within that panel you can decide if you want it to pop open for each scan. No idea what 'Work Area' is in relation to Epson Scan.

 

[GaryG]

@Paul_DS256 I answered the Work Area question in post #42.

 

[rozel]

No idea what 'Work Area' is in relation to Epson Scan.

I answered the Work Area question in post #42.

Hi guys - Thanks for the clarification but it doesn't matter now as I'm going to work with VueScan

Update: I couldn't wait so just checked and voila! The option is there when you select Slide Film - happy bunny!

Ok Wide awake now and after a coffee, I took another look at this. I previously noted Vuescan supports Multi Exposure but the V600 seemed not to as I think it needs variable CCD exposure time and I don't think this is supported. I was wrong in part, I think.

It is available on scanners that are able to increase the CCD exposure time. A first pass is performed as usual with the normal RGB exposure. This will be an appropriate exposure for the image as a whole. Then a second pass is performed with a longer exposure, which can reveal additional detail in dark areas not captured in the first pass. VueScan then merges the results of the two by choosing from either the first or second exposure pass. However there's a "Professional Option" - it is displayed when the scanner can control the CCD exposure time and when scanning slide film (not Color negative, B/W negative or Microfilm) and which will give some manual exposure times. As my scanner doesn't support the control of the CCD exposure time, then I won't get this additional option - and I don't.

Problem solved then apart from one thing. How will multi exposure work with no control? - does the software work the 2 exposure times out itself automatically? - I assume it will? See attached - ignore most of the settings as I am only attaching to show the Multi Exposure Option and the lack of the Professional Option.

The reason I seem to be harping on a lot about this is because I have tons of negatives and so I think it will be important. Later today I shall dig out a bunch of slides and play about with them too.

 

[rozel]

The reason I seem to be harping on a lot about this is because I have tons of negatives and so I think it will be important. Later today I shall dig out a bunch of slides and play about with them too.

Meant to say I have tons of Slides