Looking for a decent 35mm Slide / 35mm negative / Photo / Photo Negative Scanner

[rozel]

Lightroom Version Number

LRC 11.0

Operating System

1. Windows 10
2. Android

Hi all

First of all I must thank the people who have helped me with LRC in setting up my workflow. I am using LRC now to sort and edit my huge digital photo collection covering the last 22/23 years. I have the recommended 1-2-3 backup strategy in place and am at the point where I am switching my Cloud based storage from Dropbox to Google Drive / Photos. I use Syncbackpro v10 for the backing up to the cloud and to a further internal drive on my PC. I have also in the last few weeks managed to to integrate Teamviewer to work alongside LRC, whilst I am away so I can basically export my on the road stuff to a "Not Sorted" folder on my PC - I'm using LR Android whilst away and editing using LRC when I get back home. Currently I'm using a Canon Eos 90. I don't want to use Adobe Cloud, before someone chips in - and I positively hate "syncing" between folders etc - backup yes but not syncing as you can easily lose stuff. My primary aim whilst away is to export to my photos to my PC's "Not Sorted" folder to work on later and transfer to my catalogue(s). I hate amassing photos on a lot of devices as it takes time to sort duplicates out etc. I also transfer the photos to another external drive based in one of my Media Players, to view my completed work on a large screen TV. So I've been very busy working things out for the 2 years since last posting - but I definately would not have benefitted by using LRC if I hadn't come here - so a massive thank you.

OK to my question (lol) - So having backed up and edited my digital photos taken during the past 22/23 years, my attention is now turning to sorting my huge collection of Paper Photos & negatives for the 20 year period previous and then all my other family photos dating back to when I was born (1953) and well before that too.

I have tested out my Flatbed Scanner - an Epson Perfection 1650 and whilst it produces decent results, this scanner is really quite old. I am using Windows 10 and have paired the scanner to the VueScan software but I am sure there are better Slide and paper Photo scanners (along with associated negatives) out there that would do the job better (in higher quality) and much faster too.

So please can anyone give me some pointers as to what to go for?

Thank you

Paul

 

[Replytoken]

This is a deep rabbit hole. I guess I would start at what you want for a final product and how much do you want to spend? The ideal solution for 35mm slides and negatives is going to be a dedicated scanner, and they can get expensive. The choices have narrowed considerably over the years as well. A more affordable options is to buy an attachment and use a macro lens and DSLR. Nikon offers the adapter, which is affordable, and many have got good results, but it is not necessarily a fast process. You could also send your stuff out if that has any appeal. Finally, some folks use high end flatbed scanners, but again it depends on your budget and expectations.

And if you have a large collection, you may want to do some type of fast, simple scanning to just see what is worth your time and attention. I suspect that much of my film and slide library is not worth the effort, but you have to know to be able to sort out the keepers.

There have been a number of threads on the forum about scanning, and I would encourage you to search by terms like Vuescan, Silverfast, Epson, Coolscan, etc. to find some of the threads. Hardware will be mentioned in many of the threads along with some assessments by members.

Good luck,

--Ken

 

[dominique.gascon]

Most people will have experience with few, if not only one scanner, and you are likely to get biased opinions (like mine) since I did not have the opportunity to compare. I am using an Epson Perfection V850 pro (there is maybe a newer model) and I am quite please with it. It is a bit pricey, $2000.00 CDN at the time. Before purchasing, I did an internet search and this one was generally amongst the top rated scanner, if not the best rated one; it is also the same model that my photo supply store uses for commercial purposes.

I comes with with its own software, EPSON Scan which is pretty basic (but since I do my post editing in Lightroom I don't really care). Silverfast (I think that what it is called) was also included, but the version offered on the CD ROM would only support up to the V800, I could not try it. Since the reviews that I saw where split, I did not the need to buy the updated version of Silverfast. The V850 scans 12 slides, or 3 sections of negatives (of up to 6 frames) at the time and it takes on my computer 45 minutes to scan 12 slides with Digital Ice, 18 without and a bit longer for negatives if you have the maximum number of frames. Since post processing takes much longer than the scanning itself, it is not a major issue

 

[GaryG]

As Ken said, this is a rabbit hole. I've used a Epson Perfection V500 Photo to scan about 3000 family photos. The V500 has been replaced with the V550 or V600. I compared VueScan to the Epson Scan software and found they were about equal for B&W photos, and I preferred the color restoration feature with Epson Scan over VueScan's color restoration. I use the color restoration feature for photos I want to keep, but aren't good enough to do further editing with LRClassic.

Besides searching this site another site I've found useful is; www.scanyourentirelife.com.

 

[Paul_DS256]

OK to my question (lol) - So having backed up and edited my digital photos taken during the past 22/23 years, my attention is now turning to sorting my huge collection of Paper Photos & negatives for the 20 year period previous and then all my other family photos dating back to when I was born (1953) and well before that too.

Yes, this is definitely a rabbit hole.

I've been scanning using my V500 and found it good except for the length of time it takes to scan images and the desired quality. I also used a friends V750, with larger capacity, but again, time.

One approach I'm using is to first scan small thumbnails so that I can view them in LrC to determine if a full scan is warranted.

If I was starting over, I'd likely experiment with using my camera and adapters for film/slide. I would likely need to buy a suitable lens as well. However, this would allow to get through the process faster and the culling could be done at the same time, especially if you had the camera tethered.

 

[rozel]

@Replytoken @dominique.gascon @GaryG and @Paul_DS256
Thank you so much for your responses, really very much appreciated. Indeed a rabbit hole! I live in the UK and am keen to establish a method for my project which I want to undertake myself and not ship it out externally. I have well over 100 36 x 35mm slide magazines, at least 50-odd reels of 8mm & Super8 film and heaps of photo albums and loose photos. I'm retired so have time on my hands.

This is a deep rabbit hole. I guess I would start at what you want for a final product and how much do you want to spend?

I would like affordable and decent quality results and am willing to spend around £300 to £400 on my project. I currently use a Canon EOS 90 DSLR - I have a 50mm (fixed focal length) lens but whilst this isn't a "macro lens", I do have a set of macro tubes. I also have an old Hama Telescreen Video 3-in-1 which I experimented with some years back to transfer some of my late father's 8mm & Super 8mm film reels to video, using a camcorder. Given the quality of the footage, the results were reasonable.

I compared VueScan to the Epson Scan software

I have extensive experience with Epson Flatbed scanners (not for the purpose of my project) - as mentioned in my post, I currently deploy an Epson Perfection 1650 but which is now quite old now and because Epson's own software no longer supports this model running on Windows 10, I have bought and installed VueScan which I find acceptable for my current basic scanning needs. A few years back I experimented with my scanner to see what I could achieve quality-wise scanning some of my late father's 35mm slides. I got resonable results but given the max resolution of my scanner is 1,600 x 3,200 DPI , I'm now looking for something better.

I had thought that "scanners" had moved on over the past few years. I mean yes the Epson V600, the more expensive (as mentioned) V800/850 and the CanoScan 900F / 900F Mkii models are all quite dated yet seem to be recommended. Maybe I'm wrong - are there others? Obviously using a flatbed scanner means the process will be very slow. But if the results can maximise out the quality of the sources, then this is acceptable to me. I'm guessing that the scanners just mentioned may max out the quality of the source? I would like to know a little more though how exactly my DSLR can be used; would it quicken the process and what would the quality be compared with flatbeds.

Thanks again

Paul

 

[GaryG]

To use your DSLR, get the book Digitizing Your Photos by Peter Krogh. It is an excellent resource that explains how to do it for slides, negatives, photos, and photo albums.

 

[Woodbutcher]

To use your DSLR, get the book Digitizing Your Photos by Peter Krogh. It is an excellent resource that explains how to do it for slides, negatives, photos, and photo albums.

Here's a link to get the pdf version. https://www.damuseful.com/products/digitizing-your-photographs-pdf

 

[tspear]

This is a great thread for me. My wife asked me to look into this, she wants to take on this project later this year.
I believe I will start with the recommendation to buy her the book.

 

[rozel]

Thanks @GaryG for the tip and thanks @Woodbutcher for the link - I struggled to find it as I think the book is out of production maybe. Before I pay for some serious reading, I want to be sure that using my camera will produce better results for all the formats. I'm tempted right now to buy an Epson V600 flatbed scanner - better value than the V850 - and I've found a bargain at about £250 new. Same resolution as the V850 too and guess that any difference in post processing can be done using LRC rather than the software that comes with the scanner or VueScan.

I've downloaded the TOC for the pdf and it does look very informative but I would like to know what further equipment I may need as well as my camera equipment mentioned in my second post above. Then I will make a valued judgement on which route to take.

Thanks some more

Paul

 

[rozel]

BTW is this the YouTube version of the pdf? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yxmFjvFLPu4

 

[sty2586]

https://fotovideotec.de/dias_digitalisieren/

Here you find a description (unfortunatly German) how to duplicate slides by using an adapted slide projector and a camera.
I built it in this way and duplicated thousands of slides in very short time (some seconds per slide).
The adjusting of camera and projector, the 90 degree turning of portraitslides, the filling and change of the magazines takes time.
The after work in Lightroom (and PS) takes hours/days/....
Turning (portrait mode!), cropping, and editing takes it's time.
The quality is quite good (full camera resolution) and you can word with autofocus if you use a tele lense

Greetings from Vienna
Franz

 

[rozel]

Thanks @sty2586 - just read your web page.

I think before I can move though, I really need to know what method will provide the best results: using a flatbed scanner or using my DSLR.

Just one question that has come to mind since reading that article is that is it ok to shine the projector directly into the DSLR without using some form of box setup? Surely the concentrated and very bright beams from the pj (given how close it is to the DSLR) would very soon kill the camera's sensors?

 

[sty2586]

You remove the optic lens and a distribution lens just behind the slide holder.
Instead of the distribution lens you put in a special milky glass (called cameo glass, white; I needed ca 50x50x3 mm, 3-4 Euro) which makes a white background for the slide and reduces the light to normal strenght, so no problem for the camera. You should also click the links just below the first foto, in the German text there you can find useful description how to adapt the projector.

 

[rozel]

@sty2586 Ahh, right thank you once more - that makes it perfectly clear.

So now I need to know which is better - Flatbed Scanner (Epson V600) or Use my DSLR (Canon EOS 90D) ?

 

[Paul_DS256]

So now I need to know which is better - Flatbed Scanner (Epson V600) or Use my DSLR (Canon EOS 90D) ?

There are a couple of things to consider in terms of 'better'

• How big will you want to print your scanned photos? This will drive the pixel size requirements.
• It looks like your Canon will take a 32.3 Megapixels (6960 x 4640) image. I don't have time at the moment, but you will need to calculate the DPI setting you need on your scanner to achieve the same.
• You can shoot in RAW with the Canon and will likely have a broader gamut than the sRGB the scanner will use.
• I think one consideration should be time. Yes, you may take more time in the setup for using the camera, but you will get through your pictures faster with camera than scanning I'd suspect.
• Cost, what will be the setup cost of a camera vs scanner
• Side note. The friend who leant me the Epson 750 warned me about people walking around the house and bouncing the scanner. He lived in an older house and worked on the 2nd floor.

As I like to say, it's all relative. ;-)

 

[rozel]

@Paul_DS256 Brilliant! OK the Epson V600 has 48 bit colour depth and a resolution of 9600 x 6400 dpi so on the face of it the V600 seems comparable or better. If I'm wrong then even if it approaches the quality of image my Canon produces, I'll be very happy. I hear what you say though regarding shooting in RAW but I'm sure if needs be I'll be able to do some post-processing using the V600.

Ok all - I truly am appreciative of everyone's input here - I've decided to go with the V600. I can save images in .tiff format and whilst perhaps not has useful alongside LRC, they'd be better than jpegs as they will be saved in a lossless format.

I'm not looking to print, just digitise to my PC. I have already setup a media player to show them on my large scale tv and any we need to move around the family will be via whatsapp etc. But more importantly I shall have a 60year plus record stored permanently with no futher fading or deterioration. I'm retired so time isn't important.

Thanks again

Paul

 

[Johan Elzenga]

A few more things to consider:
- A digital camera uses a sensor with one color per pixel, a scanner uses a sensor array leading to three colors per pixel.
- A digital camera will record every speck of dust and every scratch, a scanner may have DigitalICE that automatically eliminates these from the scans. So while a digital camera may be faster for the initial ‘scan’, there will be much more post processing.

 

[dominique.gascon]

I read with interest the above discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I am committed to a high-end flatbed scanner, and no matter what, I will not change now (i am 2/3 of the way through all my slides (about 6000) and all the negatives (about 1000) are done (both colour and B&W), but I am very pleased with the results.

The flatbed scanner may be in theory slower, but in practice when you have put 12 transparencies or 18 negatives frame on it, it will merrily scan away without any intervention on your part and you can use this time to take a coffee or more constructively to edit already scanned photos.

The post processing is really the chronophage phase, specially removing the surface imperfections (it depends a lot on how tedious you are about it) and as mentioned by Johan Elzenga, without Digital Ice (which works remarkably well) you will spend hours in Photoshop cleaning your scans. It is amazing how much dust they accumulate, especially transparencies - I suspect it has to do with their repeated passages in the slide projectors. Even my negatives, which I tought were properly stored in dedicated glassine sleeves were far from being dust free. Unfortunately, Digital Ice does not work with B&W film stock, and only erratically with Kodachrome. There is a discussion about it here:
https://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/threads/35-mm-kodak-slide-film.43117/#post-1288469
and I took to scan my Kodachrome transparencies twice, with and without, reverting to the scan without if DI created to much noise. Even then, I quickly lagged behind the scanning in my processing.

 

[rozel]

Thank you @dominique.gascon that was really helpful as was the thread you pointed to which was compulsive reading and more than convinces me to go for the flatbed option.

In that thread are a couple of posts by @Paul_DS256 one of which was (is) his workflow and it's so good, that I hope he doesn't mind me posting it on here (see attached). It answers tons of stuff for me and hopefully others too. Whist you both are using top Epson flatbeds (V850 & V700 respectively) my funds don't stretch to the V850 (the top model still in production) so I'm collecting a V600 later today. The main difference as I see is that the V700/V750/V800/V850 has a larger scan area and can scan up 12 35mm slides at once whereas the V600 will only accomodate 4, leading of course to an even slower process.

The V600 has it seems 3.4 DMax optical density - the others have 4.0 DMax optical density. So my First question is, what does this mean what is it and does it make any difference.

They both adopt Digital ICE, which I understand slows down the process on all scanners if adopted. Second question is what exactly is Digital ICE and how does it work?

I have VueScan x64 installed (version 9.5.70) - I believe there's a newer 9.7.xx version available. Third Question is do I need this software and/or is it better or worse than what is bundled with the scanner and if so do I need to update? I believe Epson Photo Scan software will be offered so am unsure whether to just go with this.

Last question - do I scan in Tiff or Jpeg - which works better with LRC

I also would be interested to learn from others who use the V600 with any helpful tips etc.

Paul

 

[Johan Elzenga]

The V600 has it seems 3.4 DMax optical density - the others have 4.0 DMax optical density. So my First question is, what does this mean what is it and does it make any difference.

DMax is like the dynamic range of a digital camera. If you scan slides, then 4.0 DMax is what you want. Some scanners can increase this by combining two scans at different exposure, a bit like HDR.

They both adopt Digital ICE, which I understand slows down the process on all scanners if adopted. Second question is what exactly is Digital ICE and how does it work?

DigitalICE makes an extra scan, with infrared light. That scan will clearly show dust and scratches, and is subtracted from the normal scan to eliminate those automatically.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

I have VueScan x64 installed (version 9.5.70) - I believe there's a newer 9.7.xx version available. Third Question is do I need this software and/or is it better or worse than what is bundled with the scanner and if so do I need to update? I believe Epson Photo Scan software will be offered so am unsure whether to just go with this.

VueScan is good, but if your scanner comes with Silverfast then that is better. Silverfast can use DigitalICE with Kodachrome slides. AFAIK, that is unique for this software.

Last question - do I scan in Tiff or Jpeg - which works better with LRC

Lightroom can handle both just fine, but jpeg is lossy compressed and 8 bits/color only, while tiff can be 16 bits/color. TIFF files are much bigger, however.

 

[GaryG]

I have VueScan x64 installed (version 9.5.70) - I believe there's a newer 9.7.xx version available. Third Question is do I need this software and/or is it better or worse than what is bundled with the scanner and if so do I need to update? I believe Epson Photo Scan software will be offered so am unsure whether to just go with this.

I would get the latest version of VueScan and compare it to Epson Scan and/or Silverfast. For scanned photos, I found Epson Scan and VueScan to be equal for B&W photos and Epson Scan a little better for color photos. Of course, the results could depend on the scanner and its condition. I used the trial version of VueScan, which adds a watermark that may have effected the scanned image too.

My Epson V500 can only scan 4 slides at a time like the V600. My only experience with slides was scanning about 24 slides for a friend. I thought it was pretty slow scanning only 4 at a time. If it gets boring to you, you might want to look at this video that uses the Nikon ES-2 Slide Copier adapter. I have seen the adapter used with Canon and Sony cameras too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNK24oQICUc

 

[dominique.gascon]

If I understand correctly, Digital Ice works by scanning the negatives or transparencies, twice, First in normal RGB light which detects both surface imperfections and the image and then in infrared which detects only the surface imperfections, the pigments being transparent to IR. It can then replace the corrupt pixels by using algorithm analogous to the Photoshop / Lightroom spot removal tools. It does not work on BW negatives because the silver halide crystals in the film block the infrared, being mistaken for surface imperfections (the scans are unusable). I am not sure why it did not work originally on Kodachrome (probably something similar to the B&W), but the newer versions do (including the one in the Epson scan software). The only thing to be aware is that it does not like sharp contrasts on Kodachrome, often leaving a shadow line at these edges. Flash photos with very marked shadows or sky through a tree canopy can quickly become quite messy, but for photos with softer contrast, it works very well. That is why I scan the Kodachrome transparencies twice. You still need to check your scans afterwards (I use Photoshop) to remove the remaining glitches, but this step is considerably shortened.

 

[rozel]

Compulsive reading guys - thank you all. I've now got my new Epson Perfection V600 and sorting the logistics of how to place it. Just a few observations and more questions please : -

VueScan is good, but if your scanner comes with Silverfast then that is better. Silverfast can use DigitalICE with Kodachrome slides. AFAIK, that is unique for this software.

I have, just a few moments ago, had a look at the CD that came with it. No sign of Silverfast or anything called Epson Scan - just software called PhotoScan - anyone know what this is and/or is it the same as one of these? Ohh just before posting, I see that when I bought my Epson ET-4750 printer, I got Epson Scan 2, its Utility and something called Epson ScanSmart - again will these be useful?

I would get the latest version of VueScan and compare it to Epson Scan and/or Silverfast. For scanned photos, I found Epson Scan and VueScan to be equal for B&W photos and Epson Scan a little better for color photos.

Yes I have VueScan, and have been using with my old Perfection 1650 scanner for document scanning - I'm just not sure which software to use

If I understand correctly, Digital Ice works by scanning the negatives or transparencies, twice, First in normal RGB light which detects both surface imperfections and the image and then in infrared which detects only the surface imperfections, the pigments being transparent to IR.

DigitalICE intrigues me and I'm wondering if it's use can improve my scans to compensate for it only having 3.4 DMax? Will it work whatever the software I go for?

In the meantime I came across this yesterday from a review site: -

VueScan is the best all-rounder, but Epson Scan does surprisingly well​

Conclusion: -
Overall, the winner in this roundup has to be Hamrick Software's VueScan. Although it isn't the best at everything it does, it turns in a solid performance in basically every category, and includes a several features Epson Scan lacks. It also has by far the cleanest, most responsive user interface of the bunch, and the best documentation.

With that said, I thought Epson Scan did surprisingly well also. Sure, its interface is dated and clunky, its cropping overenthusiastic and it lacks some features like multi-exposure, multi-sampling and Raw output. But it turns out pretty decent image quality most of the time, with especially good dust reduction performance. And if you're an Epson Perfection owner, you've already got a copy free with your scanner purchase.

As for SilverFast, it too is capable of very good image quality, and with a good bit more control and features than Epson Scan offers. But its overly complex user interface and weak documentation coupled with performance that trails its rivals and algorithms that more often need manual intervention conspire to hold it back from what it could be.

Comparison of Pros and Cons: -

Epson Scan​

Pros	Cons
Ships free with the scanner The fastest by a hair The best default image quality Good results from fade, color and hardware dust correction	Dated user interface Fewer controls than third-party rivals Inaccurate cropping and can't batch scan if manually cropped Occasionally buggy Software dust correction is of little use

SilverFast SE Plus​

Pros	Cons
Broad scanner support Fair image quality by default More control than Epson Scan Tailors results based on film type (but fewer types than VueScan) Multi-exposure scanning DNG and TIFF raw support	The slowest of the bunch Images tended to be too warm More manual intervention needed than rivals Sharpening defaults too high Prone to some artifacts from over-sharpening Hardware dust correction doesn't blend as well as rivals Software dust correction is of little use Multi-exposure scanning doesn't offer much advantage for most shots

VueScan Professional Edition​

Pros	Cons
Broad scanner support Good image quality by default Lightweight and responsive user interface More control than Epson Scan Tailor results based on film type (and more types than SilverFast) Multi-exposure scanning Multi-sampled scanning DNG and TIFF raw support	Not quite as fast as Epson Scan Images tended a little too cool and a little low-contrast Multi-exposure and multi-sampled scanning don't offer much advantage for most shots

What y'all think?

Paul