Lightroom working gamut

[ilarionmoga]

Lightroom Version Number

Lightroom 8.4

Operating System

1. Windows 10

Hello everyone,
It's first time I write here and as an avid user of Lightroom, I am very aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. I won't name the plethora of strengths, of which I am so grateful, I will only ask for some options I want in Lightroom, that I found mandatory for a good and professional editing. Apart from not being the very fast RAW processing software, there are some flows I can't go over, no matter what. Today I will start with the ones that annoys me the most. It might be surprising to most of you, but the ProPhoto profile, that Lightroom is working RAW files in, it's not the best profile to accurately preserve saturated colors. While most of the colors falls inside the sRGB or AdobeRGB profiles, and are displayed properly, the most saturated colors are blown outside these profiles and this results in oversaturated colors to display in sRGB. Ok, most of professional photographers would tel me, Why would I want to work in a profile as small as sRGB ar even AdobeRGB, when the ProPhoto is bigger than both and is better to work with because it preserves more colors for best CMYK gamuts?! Well, first of all, only a small fraction of my clients are using devices capable of showing lets say, AdobeRGB or P3 profiles. The ting is, the prints I am doing are well within the sRGB and I am very happy with this. Besides, I don't really like to have very saturated colors in my images. So, one option would be to desaturate colors in Lightroom, but this would result in undersaturated colors overall. Of course, I could use the 'vibrance' tool to regain saturation for pastel colors but this is not an option for me because it alters the colors too much in a way I find unpleasant. I ended up modifying the DNG profile to desaturate the most satuarted colors in the spectrum. This is not the best option, but it lets me keep the skin tones in the correct gamut coordinates, without twisting them.
These being said, I found that this happens because of the fact that Lightroom works inside a much larger ProPhoto gamut that my display can show, and rising the contrast in images results in oversaturated primaries. The best solution to this problem would be to be able to choose the gamut in which Lightroom performs the editing. Best options would be to include sRGB, AdobeRGB and the new P3 that is around us from some time now. There is no logical reason to work in ProPhoto, at least not for me.

I will mention of another problem I find annoying in Lightroom/ACR. It performs all the algoritms, contrast, curves, saturation, etc. in perceptual not relative colorimetric. I understand the differences of them in theory and I find the use of a perceptual algorithm to be tied to the ProPhoto gamut Lightroom uses. In prophoto, almost every image results in oversatuated colors so using a perceptual algorithm, prevents colors to oversaturate to an extreme extent. This solution, again, does not favors color accuracy, but keeping the colors good when we eyeball them. Yes, it's a solution, but it is far from perfect. The new Adobe DNG profiles have some sort of relative colorimetric embeded in them, so colors are in fact very good. The problem is whn I want to use custom DNG profile that does not have embeded color rendition of any sort. They don't have any twisting algorithms embeded in them.

I put here examples for the problems I mentioned.

 

[ilarionmoga]

 

[Replytoken]

Welcome to the forum. Most people prefer to work in large color spaces with raw files for a number of reasons, including less "rounding" errors when doing any type of adjustments. I am assuming that you are aware of the ability to soft proof images in sRGB when working in the Develop Module? This should address a number of your issues and allow you make adjustments as necessary. Have you tried using soft proofing?

--Ken

 

[LouieSherwin]

Hi @ilarionmoga and welcome to the forums. This is probably not the best place to get useful feed back on this level of color management. Most folks here are satisfied to just get their prints to look close to what they see on their monitor.

While I consider myself pretty knowledgable on basic color management the questions you raise are way over my head. There is a place where I think that you would get good feedback and lively discussion. This is the Colour Management forum over at luminous-landscape.com.

-louie

 

[ilarionmoga]

Welcome to the forum. Most people prefer to work in large color spaces with raw files for a number of reasons, including less "rounding" errors when doing any type of adjustments. I am assuming that you are aware of the ability to soft proof images in sRGB when working in the Develop Module? This should address a number of your issues and allow you make adjustments as necessary. Have you tried using soft proofing?

--Ken

Thank you, Ken! Yes, it would be nice to have monitors able to show the entire ProPhoto RGB, unfortunately I only have a good, calibrated and profiled sRGB Eizo. Seeing things in sRGB only, I find rather useless to work in a larger color space because the colors that are within sRGB are saturated enough for my needs and those that get outside sRGB are clipped out in an unpleasant way, like an overexposed photo. This clipping happens when I rise the contrast, a normal behavior. The thing is that most base linear RAW file are well within sRGB and if we would have an option in Lightroom to work within sRGB, none of the colors would get outside the sRGB, and saturated colors wont have burn out surfaces. Soft proofing does not do any good, since my monitor already is capable to show sRGB gamut. If I would need to soft proof for a smaller CMYK profile, then would make sense.
Now, i understand that this is not the right place to revolve to someone from Adobe. Where should I address my concerns to arrive at Lightroom developers?

 

[ilarionmoga]

Hi @ilarionmoga and welcome to the forums. This is probably not the best place to get useful feed back on this level of color management. Most folks here are satisfied to just get their prints to look close to what they see on their monitor.

While I consider myself pretty knowledgable on basic color management the questions you raise are way over my head. There is a place where I think that you would get good feedback and lively discussion. This is the Colour Management forum over at luminous-landscape.com.

-louie

Thank you, Louie!
I will revolve to luminous landscape but I am pretty sure they wont solve my concerns since this is a coding issue within Lightroom software. If I'd be a software developer I might get into modifying some Lightroom algorithms, but I'm yet to eat codes So the only viable option are Lightroom developers to make some options in this wonderful RAW developer.
Best regards!
Ilarion

 

[Bernard]

Hi @ilarionmoga,
If I understand you correctly, your problems come from the fact that Lightroom uses internally Prophoto, and that cannot be changed.
If you would like to use LR for cataloging and managing your images, but not for developing, you could send your raw files directly (without TIFF conversion) to photoshop , using this plug-in :
http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/lightroom/open-directly/and in PS you can choose your working colorspace.
Bernard

 

[clee01l]

Seeing things in sRGB only, I find rather useless to work in a larger color space

The larger ProPhotoRGB colorspace is the working color space. When LR makes adjustments to pixels it needs a computational working color space because some computed values will fall outside of the visible envelope. When you export or display, LR uses the suitable color space that you choose for your media, Lightroom will take all pixel values that fall outside of the selected colorspace envelop and remap them to fall inside the selected colorspace envelope

 

[ilarionmoga]

Hi @ilarionmoga,
If I understand you correctly, your problems come from the fact that Lightroom uses internally Prophoto, and that cannot be changed.
If you would like to use LR for cataloging and managing your images, but not for developing, you could send your raw files directly (without TIFF conversion) to photoshop , using this plug-in :
http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/lightroom/open-directly/and in PS you can choose your working colorspace.
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
Yes, you understand perfectly. What I hoped for by writing on this forum, is a way to make myself heard by someone from Adobe. The problems I am rising can only be solved by a future Lightroom update. I have waited for Lightroom to evolve also in this particular branch, color management, but unfortunately did not, and remained at a very basic level, good enough for most of the users. Yes, I could get around these issues albeit, not in the best fashion. I had to modify Adobe standard profile in order to tame the saturation so I don't have to lower the color saturation inside Lightroom, practice that would lower the saturation for all the tone of that color. So, by editing a the profile in Adobe profile editor, I lowered the saturation of primaries taht are showed in ProPhoto RGB, but made an anchor point on skin tones , yellows and some more pastel tones and the result are pretty satisfying. Satisfying but not accurate, even if my work doesn't involve accuracy, I do want an accurate starting point. Yes, I get it, some printing gamuts go well beyond sRGB standard, but even so, i do not want ovely saturated colors in my prints either. I am more toward pastel, filmlike tones.

 

[ilarionmoga]

The larger ProPhotoRGB colorspace is the working color space. When LR makes adjustments to pixels it needs a computational working color space because some computed values will fall outside of the visible envelope. When you export or display, LR uses the suitable color space that you choose for your media, Lightroom will take all pixel values that fall outside of the selected colorspace envelop and remap them to fall inside the selected colorspace envelope

Yes Clee, I do export in sRGB, but this changes nothing because the work in Lightroom is done inside ProPhoto RGB and this result in overly saturated primaries that are well outside sRGB and they are showed up like patches of full bodied primaries rather than color tones. I will show you an example.
Thank for the reply!

 

[ilarionmoga]

In the left image I have used my own modified Adobe standard profile while on the right one the default Adobe standard profile.
The camera is a Canon 5D mark II.
Even so unsaturated, there are patches where color falls outside the sRGB and is clipped out. It wouldn't be so hard for Lightroom engineers to make an option in Lightroom to work inside sRGB

 

[ilarionmoga]

Hi Bernard,
Yes, you understand perfectly. What I hoped for by writing on this forum, is a way to make myself heard by someone from Adobe. The problems I am rising can only be solved by a future Lightroom update. I have waited for Lightroom to evolve also in this particular branch, color management, but unfortunately did not, and remained at a very basic level, good enough for most of the users. Yes, I could get around these issues albeit, not in the best fashion. I had to modify Adobe standard profile in order to tame the saturation so I don't have to lower the color saturation inside Lightroom, practice that would lower the saturation for all the tone of that color. So, by editing a the profile in Adobe profile editor, I lowered the saturation of primaries taht are showed in ProPhoto RGB, but made an anchor point on skin tones , yellows and some more pastel tones and the result are pretty satisfying. Satisfying but not accurate, even if my work doesn't involve accuracy, I do want an accurate starting point. Yes, I get it, some printing gamuts go well beyond sRGB standard, but even so, i do not want ovely saturated colors in my prints either. I am more toward pastel, filmlike tones.

I like how I can handle RAW files in Lightroom better than any other raw developer I've tried, including CaptureOne. So there are no alternatives for me. Well, all the things I am asking are already included in RAW Therapee, but that particular software is a no no for me because their highlight and shadow recovery algorithms are just awful, not to mention the HSL algorithms.

 

[ilarionmoga]

An example of clipped out reds in Lightroom

 

[ilarionmoga]

If i could only speak to Adobe engineers...

 

[Hal P Anderson]

If i could only speak to Adobe engineers...

See the "Bug Report/Feature Request" link at the top of this page. Adobe engineers frequent the forum that is referenced there.

 

[ilarionmoga]

Yes, I can edit the contrast in Photoshop where I can work in sRGB profile, but this is no option for wedding photography where I have to edit hundreds of images with custom exposure and so on. Lightroom is best but cannot de customized the way I would like.

 

[ilarionmoga]

See the "Bug Report/Feature Request" link at the top of this page. Adobe engineers frequent the forum that is referenced there.

Thank you, Anderson! I will try to speak there. I would have hoped that I could find more color fanatics as I am, so we can make our voices heard more easily.
The main problem is that clients sees images on internet, displayed in sRGB profile. Most of them don't even have proper sRGB displays, some have P3 displays that show the colors in improper way... it is what it is, but the standard still is the mighty sRGB and is such a no brainer not to have the option to edit the RAW files in sRGB.

 

[ilarionmoga]

Same but more detailed example.

 

[Bernard]

I like how I can handle RAW files in Lightroom better than any other raw developer I've tried,

Ok, but you know that going to PS, as I suggested above, you can use ACR (Camera raw). ACR and LR use exactly the same algorithms, and a very similar user interface.
I don't think Adobe will ever change LR color management because
1) it is well designed and good enough for most people
2) for the others, there is PS
Bernard

 

[ilarionmoga]

Ok, but you know that going to PS, as I suggested above, you can use ACR (Camera raw). ACR and LR use exactly the same algorithms, and a very similar user interface.
I don't think Adobe will ever change LR color management because
1) it is well designed and good enough for most people
2) for the others, there is PS
Bernard

Yes, I know, I use ACR mostly to fine tune RGB tone curves to use them in Lightroom since Lightroom have terible Curve tool precision. Everything else is the same as Lightroom.
I will try to make my concerns visible to Lightroom developers.
Just look at how wide the ProPhoto RGB is! If happens a photowhere I have a woman with bright red lipstick, her red lips will fall outside sRGB and no one will be able any detail in that red on any device. It makes no sense at all. We should be able to chose the designated color space in which Lightroom is baking the RAWs. Right now, Lightroom/ACR are burning the colors into the oblivious prophoto. At least they should have chosen AdobeRGB...

 

[Replytoken]

Yes Clee, I do export in sRGB, but this changes nothing because the work in Lightroom is done inside ProPhoto RGB and this result in overly saturated primaries that are well outside sRGB and they are showed up like patches of full bodied primaries rather than color tones. I will show you an example.
Thank for the reply!

I guess what I am not understanding is why you are not using soft proofing before you export to see what is out of gamut for sRGB? You can then bring down those areas before exporting and then have the entire image within the sRGB gamut. I know this is not a working solution for bulk processing, but it is possible on an image by image basis. I have done this with high saturation images which fall outside of sRGB when in the Develop module. I know you would prefer an sRGB color space in LR, but this is a workable solution for single images. Am I not correctly understanding the issue?

--Ken

 

[Johan Elzenga]

If happens a photo where I have a woman with bright red lipstick, her red lips will fall outside sRGB and no one will be able any detail in that red on any device.

That depends on the rendering intent used when that photo is converted to sRGB on the device. If Perceptual is used, then the lips should retain their detail.

 

[ilarionmoga]

That depends on the rendering intent used when that photo is converted to sRGB on the device. If Perceptual is used, then the lips should retain their detail.

I export from Lightroom directly in sRGB and the reds are already clipped out in Lightroom interface. I want to mention that I am aware of color management and everything is fine. Just the Lightroom use of prophoto to edit images is not.

 

[ilarionmoga]

I guess what I am not understanding is why you are not using soft proofing before you export to see what is out of gamut for sRGB? You can then bring down those areas before exporting and then have the entire image within the sRGB gamut. I know this is not a working solution for bulk processing, but it is possible on an image by image basis. I have done this with high saturation images which fall outside of sRGB when in the Develop module. I know you would prefer an sRGB color space in LR, but this is a workable solution for single images. Am I not correctly understanding the issue?

--Ken

Soft proofing is what it sound it is, it just emulate a color space over the image to be able to see it in that color space, how will look for example on print. It does nothing on the actual image.
Lightroom manages raw files inside the ProPhoto, and it's a bad idea to do so. We do not have displays capable to show the entire prophoto rgb. We are getting close to Rec. 2020, which is still smaller than prophoto. So Lightroom to be able to show correct colors, everything that goes outside the monitor profile, maps inside this profile, aka burns them. This behavior is due to the fact that when we rise the contrast of an image, we rise the saturation of colors too, which is perfectly normal. If we could choose to work in AdobeRGB or sRGB, none of colors would go outside the intended gamut, because this is how profiles work in the first place. These profiles are just conventions so we have language of color understanding so our monitors can show them in the correct coordinates on the visual spectrum. We can only see a part of the spectrum on our monitors, due to limits in technology, but we see actually a lot of it. P3 is a great color space, being able to show more saturated reds than AdobeRGB, even if the greens are not so saturated. Honestly, I don't need the very saturated greens. P3 color space is a color space dictated by the light source and color filters of modern cinema projectors and white LED monitors. Why to not be able to show movies in a larger color space if the technology permits?! But ProPhoto, is way too large to work within. ProPhoto and the newer ACES P0 and P1 profiles were meant for the analog cinema and photo industry. When you have to invert negatives, if the negative image doesn't have a large enough color space, colors will be clipped out after inverting them. There is no other practical use for prophoto.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

There is nothing wrong with using the widest possible color space while editing. You can ask Adobe to give you the choice to choose a different color space, but I am 99.99% sure they will not honor that request, so you either have to accept the realities in Lightroom or use other software. Conversion with the right rendering intent should solve out of gamut problems. If there is clipping on another device after conversion to sRGB, then the problem might be that this device does not support the full sRGB color space, especially in those red areas.