Lightroom Classic constantly re-saving XMP file information

[MikePhotog]

Lightroom Version Number

15.1.1

Operating System

1. Windows 11

Hello,

My apologies if this has been covered already, I searched through the forum and only found a vague reference.

I have the setting to save to XMP turned on, I am considering turning it off, but that's a different subject.

LR seems to constantly be re-saving XMP information even through apparently nothing changed in the file information. Just this morning I tested this a few times, I opened a catalog, exited LR, received the message that LR was still saving XMP information, I waited to make sure the prompt went away. I closed LR and reopened the catalog again. When I tried to exit, LR tells me it is still saving the information.

Has anyone run into this, and have you found a solution?

I will greatly appreciate your feedback. This is an annoyance for me; I keep two catalogs Master and Working and switch between them quite often.

Mike.,

 

[clee01l]

any attempt to edit or add metadata to those local images silently imports them into the Lightroom app and from there they will be synced to the Adobe Cloud. XMP files are not a factor in that process.

I've been puzzled by the difference in terminology for Mobile and Desktop. I don't go digging into individual files on the mobile app. Only the Desktop version where I did encounter the XMP. This explains the reasons. So in mobile there is really no "local" option.

So, what/where is Swingman reporting XMP files? Mobile or desktop?

 

[Swingman]

I've been puzzled by the difference in terminology for Mobile and Desktop. I don't go digging into individual files on the mobile app. Only the Desktop version where I did encounter the XMP. This explains the reasons. So in mobile there is really no "local" option.

So, what/where is Swingman reporting XMP files? Mobile or desktop?

XMP files are in my SSD drive where LrC save my photos in date folder. So each of my date folders have photos + XMP for each photos and one lua file.
I know the cloud has XMP files for each photos

 

[Swingman]

Here is a screen shot of a date folder

 

[clee01l]

XMP files are in my SSD drive where LrC save my photos in date folder. So each of my date folders have photos + XMP for each photos and one lua file.
I know the cloud has XMP files for each photos

If you refer to Jim Wilde's post which corrects my assumptions about the Mobile app and the Device option. There is no such thing as an XMP file in the Adobe Cloud or Lr Mobile wrt Lightroom. The edit data in mobile is always written to the Adobe Cloud and never stored as a separate XMP file. In Lightroom Desktop there is a Local option and that does create XMP sidecar files. If Classic uses other Adobe external editors the process can Create an XMP sidecar to pass the Lightroom Edits on to the other Adobe app. The Photoshop app gets its Lightroom information on one of two ways. Either as an intermediate TIFF or PSD where the edits are "baked in." or as a Smart Object where the original file and edits are communicated directly to Photoshop. The smart Object contains both original data and edit instructions and is sent to Photoshop much like the data is sent from ACR to photoshop.

 

[Swingman]

If you refer to Jim Wilde's post which corrects my assumptions about the Mobile app and the Device option. There is no such thing as an XMP file in the Adobe Cloud or Lr Mobile wrt Lightroom. The edit data in mobile is always written to the Adobe Cloud and never stored as a separate XMP file. In Lightroom Desktop there is a Local option and that does create XMP sidecar files. If Classic uses other Adobe external editors the process can Create an XMP sidecar to pass the Lightroom Edits on to the other Adobe app. The Photoshop app gets its Lightroom information on one of two ways. Either as an intermediate TIFF or PSD where the edits are "baked in." or as a Smart Object where the original file and edits are communicated directly to Photoshop. The smart Object contains both original data and edit instructions and is sent to Photoshop much like the data is sent from ACR to photoshop.

I don't have or use any external editors, and no PS. I am sure the XMP files either stored in the cloud or generated by the Sync down process by Lightroom or classic.

I also suspect that the Xmp file has been modified since its creation. Here are two screenshots of a cr3 & corresponding Xmp files info

 

[Jim Wilde]

XMP files are in my SSD drive where LrC save my photos in date folder. So each of my date folders have photos + XMP for each photos and one lua file.
I know the cloud has XMP files for each photos

The only possible explanations for the presence of XMP/ACR sidecars in the LrC folder is that they have been created by saving metadata to XMP by LrC (either manually by Cmd+S or automatically via the Catalog Settings), or you have imported images into LrC either from the Downloader or from exporting images from LrD using the Original + Settings option. In all my testing (and I have done a LOT since LrD was introduced in 2017) I have never known XMP sidecars to be created in LrC as a result of direct syncing of raw files from the Cloud into LrC.
Having seen the new ACR sidecars in your screenshot I wondered if their recent introduction has resulted in a change in syncing behaviour, but a quick test showed that not to be the case, i.e. I imported images with associated XMP and ACR sidecars directly into LrD, which are read and applied in LrD and the edits are applied when they sync down into LrC....but there are no sidecars associated with them in the LrC folder. So no change.

 

[Swingman]

The only possible explanations for the presence of XMP/ACR sidecars in the LrC folder is that they have been created by saving metadata to XMP by LrC (either manually by Cmd+S or automatically via the Catalog Settings), or you have imported images into LrC either from the Downloader or from exporting images from LrD using the Original + Settings option. In all my testing (and I have done a LOT since LrD was introduced in 2017) I have never known XMP sidecars to be created in LrC as a result of direct syncing of raw files from the Cloud into LrC.
Having seen the new ACR sidecars in your screenshot I wondered if their recent introduction has resulted in a change in syncing behaviour, but a quick test showed that not to be the case, i.e. I imported images with associated XMP and ACR sidecars directly into LrD, which are read and applied in LrD and the edits are applied when they sync down into LrC....but there are no sidecars associated with them in the LrC folder. So no change.

I only stated to use Lr and LrC this month. Before I was only using LrM on iPad and Samsung S24. I haven't setup LrD. Other than installing Lr cloud version I watching it, I have't used it so far.
I started the syncing down to LrC from files uploaded and edited in LrM (total cloud size 90GB) all in one go. The process started on 2nd Feb and finished the following day. I haven't changed any setting in Preferances , so assume all are default. I only selected or just confirmed date folders. I have't used any external editors or any other Adobe programs.
I suspect the syncing process, first downloaded all the photos (raws & jpeg) and then either created or download all the Xmp files. The difference in creating time difference validate that theory. I don't know why the Xmp files been modified afterwards, thus implying that the program continue to using the sidecar files. I have no recollection of pressing Cmd+S
I started LrC in 15.1 as I was waiting for the first lot of updates to Lightroom ecco system and MacBook. My Preferances currently shows No to saving to XMP.

 

[Maurizio]

These are not XMP fields. They are EXIF and IPTC fields also stored in the header. They are only stored in the Catalog file or the Original file if you Save metadata back to the original. In a non Proprietarry file like TIFF, JPEG or DNG, there are three sections of the header block that can contain text data. These are EXIF, IPTC and optionally XMP. There are other blocks like thumbnail images etc .The title, headline, description, copyright, subject, location etc are contained in the EXIF or IPTC data blocks.

Yes, you are right, these are primarily defined in EXIF and IPTC-IIM headers. However, when the image is exported from LrC they are also written to the corresponding XMP properties defined inside specific XMP schemas. If these metadata values have been modified in the catalog, after the export (or after writing metadata to original file) the values are updated both in legacy EXIF/IPTC headers and in XMP. When I made my tests (long time ago) I used the command "exiftool -G1 -a -s filename" to get a comprehensive view of which embedded metadata are affected, as well as in which XMP schemas they are defined. Example of (very small excerpt of) exiftool output:
[IFD0] ImageDescription : Lorem Ipsum
[IPTC] Caption-Abstract : Lorem Ipsum
[XMP-dc] Description : Lorem Ipsum

where [IFDO] , {IPTC], [XMP-dc] identify in Exiftool respectively Legacy EXIF, legacy IPTC (actually IPTC-IIM) and the Dublin Core schema defined by XMP (xmp:dc).

 

[Doc52]

Just goin on the initial question -
"LR seems to constantly be re-saving XMP information even through apparently nothing changed in the file information. "

I had an idea, that if you had save to xmp on, and at some stage had to go to a backup of your database, say from a few months back, or you had to rebuild any of it / destroy the previews file etc, then your database and xmp files would not be synced up, so whilst you would be happy with a repaired database, maybe from a backup, AND you had - Auto write to XMP turned on - it may be doing just that, in the back ground, saving the data to get the database and xmp lined up again?
Just an idea.

 

[Jim Wilde]

I suspect the syncing process, first downloaded all the photos (raws & jpeg) and then either created or download all the Xmp files. The difference in creating time difference validate that theory. I don't know why the Xmp files been modified afterwards, thus implying that the program continue to using the sidecar files. I have no recollection of pressing Cmd+S

AFAIK, Lightroom does not generate and download XMP/ACR sidecar files into LrC as part of the sync download process. I'm happy for someone to tell me that's wrong (@RikkFlohr?), but it's something I've never seen or heard of before. The difference in the timestamps lends more credence to the idea that the sidecar files were somehow created by LrC after the initial download, and if so that can only be by using Cmd+S manually, or having the Auto Save XMP setting enabled in Catalog Settings.

Is it still happening, i.e. verify that the auto save option is definitely disabled, then can you add some raw files into LrM on the iPad and wait until they have synced into LrC and then check to see if there's an associated sidecar file in the LrC folder?

 

[Swingman]

AFAIK, Lightroom does not generate and download XMP/ACR sidecar files into LrC as part of the sync download process. I'm happy for someone to tell me that's wrong (@RikkFlohr?), but it's something I've never seen or heard of before. The difference in the timestamps lends more credence to the idea that the sidecar files were somehow created by LrC after the initial download, and if so that can only be by using Cmd+S manually, or having the Auto Save XMP setting enabled in Catalog Settings.

Is it still happening, i.e. verify that the auto save option is definitely disabled, then can you add some raw files into LrM on the iPad and wait until they have synced into LrC and then check to see if there's an associated sidecar file in the LrC folder?

Jim, Have you ever used Adobe Downloader ( available for windows & Mac) which will import all your original and XMP files of all photos (no ability to select) to a directory/finder or external drive. So where are the sidecar files coming from.

 

[Jim Wilde]

Jim, Have you ever used Adobe Downloader ( available for windows & Mac) which will import all your original and XMP files of all photos (no ability to select) to a directory/finder or external drive. So where are the sidecar files coming from.

Yes, I have used the Downloader, and as I said earlier they do indeed create XMP sidecars for downloaded raw files. But, the downloader only saves the images to a local drive but does not automatically add them to either Lightroom Classic or Lightroom. So they won't appear in LrC unless you decide to subsequently import them. Is that what you did?

 

[Swingman]

Yes, I have used the Downloader, and as I said earlier they do indeed create XMP sidecars for downloaded raw files. But, the downloader only saves the images to a local drive but does not automatically add them to either Lightroom Classic or Lightroom. So they won't appear in LrC unless you decide to subsequently import them. Is that what you did?

I didn’t do such things. I only started the sync process. It ran overnight and when it finished I was doing some editing and Mapping. I didn’t set any downloading of XMP. I don’t even know how to do it. I only knew that was there when I was trying find out why my downloaded folders displayed as MM-DD without year. And when `I saw, `I assumed it was normal until a recent discussion in this forum implied they should not be there.

 

[Swingman]

I have been going through line by line in Catalog settings. I have come across this.
Automatically write changes into sidecar file (XMP/ACR). Currently it is ticked.
If I unticked I get following warning

Changes made in Lightroom will not automatically be visible in other application unless written to sidecars
Is this the cause for my sidecars are in the folders? If this is unticked, how the export to PS is affected? My understanding is that you send the edited files for further processing.

On a separate topic, If one setup file name change on import, does this also change the filename in the cloud when synced down?

 

[Jim Wilde]

I have been going through line by line in Catalog settings. I have come across this.
Automatically write changes into sidecar file (XMP/ACR). Currently it is ticked.
If I unticked I get following warning

Changes made in Lightroom will not automatically be visible in other application unless written to sidecars
Is this the cause for my sidecars are in the folders? If this is unticked, how the export to PS is affected? My understanding is that you send the edited files for further processing.

On a separate topic, If one setup file name change on import, does this also change the filename in the cloud when synced down?

Well, yes that does explain why you are seeing the sidecar files in the folders. I did point that out as one of the likely causes of the problem! That information/warning message if you uncheck that option does not apply to editing in Photoshop (or other External Editors) if you use the standard "Edit in..." method (LrC passes the file and edit data to the ACR plug-in within PS - or renders a DNG/Tiff file for other External Editors such as Topaz - using the data in the catalog). It only applies if you try to open your images in another application outside of LrC. There's plenty of information in this forum about the pros and cons of saving to XMP, it's one of those never-ending debates such as Mac v Windows, DNG v Raw, etc. Do the reading, then make your own mind up about that option.

Regarding your separate topic, renames do sync. While you can setup a file name change on import to LrC, you can't do that for Lightroom, though you can rename after import in the cloud but only within LrD. But any change that you make in LrD will sync to LrC.

 

[Gnits]

I am regularly asked if xmp data should be automatically saved.

My stock answer.

“Please put in writing what benefits you expect”… I will respond then to this. I often get vague verbal responses and I have yet to receive such a written note.”

If it is not providing a specific benefit to you I advise not to save xmp automatically. There are lots of methods within LrC to do this on a file, folder or catalog basic… where you have complete control .

I agree… read some of the debates on auto save to xmp.

 

[Swingman]

Well, yes that does explain why you are seeing the sidecar files in the folders. I did point that out as one of the likely causes of the problem! That information/warning message if you uncheck that option does not apply to editing in Photoshop (or other External Editors) if you use the standard "Edit in..." method (LrC passes the file and edit data to the ACR plug-in within PS - or renders a DNG/Tiff file for other External Editors such as Topaz - using the data in the catalog). It only applies if you try to open your images in another application outside of LrC. There's plenty of information in this forum about the pros and cons of saving to XMP, it's one of those never-ending debates such as Mac v Windows, DNG v Raw, etc. Do the reading, then make your own mind up about that option.

Regarding your separate topic, renames do sync. While you can setup a file name change on import to LrC, you can't do that for Lightroom, though you can rename after import in the cloud but only within LrD. But any change that you make in LrD will sync to LrC.

The information/warning is no complimentary and confusing to new users, specifically LrC does not come with any user/ setup manual like all modern programs avoid any additional cost to software houses. I can rember the manuals came with original Lotus 123 and MS C programming manual. You need to have one long bookshelf to accommodate them.

Now the problem is solved. Would it be to better to delete all the LrC files and start all over as all my edited files are in the cloud and thus help me keep clean file system.

 

[Jim Wilde]

The information/warning is no complimentary and confusing to new users, specifically LrC does not come with any user/ setup manual like all modern programs avoid any additional cost to software houses. I can rember the manuals came with original Lotus 123 and MS C programming manual. You need to have one long bookshelf to accommodate them.

Now the problem is solved. Would it be to better to delete all the LrC files and start all over as all my edited files are in the cloud and thus help me keep clean file system.

Regarding the user/setup manual, have you tried pressing the F1 key in LrC (or use the Help option on the LrC menu bar)? Not as comprehensive as Victoria's Missing FAQ book, but it's not nothing.

Regarding the XMP sidecar files, deleting them from LrC would be a really really really bad idea. If you delete a synced file from LrC it will also delete the copy from the Cloud. So I wouldn't do that if I was you. If the XMP sidecar files bother you, you can use Finder to delete them (just the sidecar files), but personally I simply wouldn't worry about them. I've assumed you've turned the auto save option off in Catalog Settings, in which case you'll only see new sidecar files should you decide to manually create them.

 

[clee01l]

Regarding the user/setup manual, have you tried pressing the F1 key in LrC (or use the Help option on the LrC menu bar)? Not as comprehensive as Victoria's Missing FAQ book, but it's not nothing.

IMO every new user should take advantage of the Missing FAQ book.

 

[John R Ellis]

IMO every new user should take advantage of the Missing FAQ book.

And every experienced user. The Missing FAQ is my go-to reference for LR Classic, more authoritative and comprehensive than Adobe Help.

 

[clee01l]

And every experienced user. The Missing FAQ is my go-to reference for LR Classic, more authoritative and comprehensive than Adobe Help.

Presumably experienced users have a copy and use it for reference.

 

[Doc52]

Hello,

My apologies if this has been covered already, I searched through the forum and only found a vague reference.

I have the setting to save to XMP turned on, I am considering turning it off, but that's a different subject.

LR seems to constantly be re-saving XMP information even through apparently nothing changed in the file information. Just this morning I tested this a few times, I opened a catalog, exited LR, received the message that LR was still saving XMP information, I waited to make sure the prompt went away. I closed LR and reopened the catalog again. When I tried to exit, LR tells me it is still saving the information.

Has anyone run into this, and have you found a solution?

I will greatly appreciate your feedback. This is an annoyance for me; I keep two catalogs Master and Working and switch between them quite often.

Mike.,

HI Mike
I've noticed even after Windows closes the LrC window, So LrC is "closed" however, if you run a task manager window, you will see Adobe Lightroom is still running some processes in the background, well after a big editing session for sure, and this can be for a few minutes or in one case 12minutes later!

 

[Gnits]

Not surprising. A database with a lot of tables and fields. There is bound to be background index maintenance, optimising, basic house keeping running as background services. I notice activity on disks not currently active.. so it is broader than just recent images edited.

 

[Doc52]

Not surprising. A database with a lot of tables and fields. There is bound to be background index maintenance, optimising, basic house keeping running as background services. I notice activity on disks not currently active.. so it is broader than just recent images edited.

True that, just thought it might be worth noting.
Being a database, it really needs a better set of "Database Tools", but that's for another topic.

I'm a plus 1 on this - "I agree… read some of the debates on auto save to xmp."
And also do not save xmp automatically, prefer to have the Include Develop settings in metadata inside JPEG, TIFF, PNG and PSD files, turned on.
Having said that Adobe has made mention that and ACR file and a TMP file maybe generated even if you don't have auto XMP turned on, given the size of some more extensive edits using Ai.
Are you doing a large amount of Ai editing ?

 

[Gnits]

I value the Ai tools and suspect we are just at the start of their evolution.

However, I only use Denoise in exceptional situations.

I use filters only for my top rated images so do not blindly apply Ai based presets at point of import, etc. I like the concept of the Landscape filter set.

I am conscious of the blobs of data generated by Ai tools. This does not bother me.. as my usage is modest...but I can imagine workflows where using Ai becomes the norm for most imported images.

I remember a time when database blobs were first introduced to serious commercial databases and DBA's were terrified of the
prospect.