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Light to heavy green tint in B/W Blurb book!

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floyd

New Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2022
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24
Lightroom Experience
Intermediate
Lightroom Version
Classic
Lightroom Version Number
12.2.1
Operating System
  1. macOS 13 Ventura
I'm using the subscription version of Lightroom with Ventura 12.2.1 on an M1 Mac Mini and Studio Display.

I edited all my B/W photos, designed my book in the "Book" module, and submitted an abbreviated version of the book for proofing to Blurb. I got the book yesterday and there's a hideous and obvious green haze/tint in various degrees on all the photos! Putting aside the green, the exposure and contrast of the B/W photos looks good.

So I contacted Blurb. They responded quickly with a bunch of printing lingo, jargon and numbers. But the bottom line is they said the photos I submitted were not B/W neutral. Then they proceeded to tell me how to fix MY problem in Photoshop. I don't edit in Photoshop; I use Lightroom exclusively. Blurb did, however, offer to reprint the book as I originally submitted it or after I made adjustments. I told them all the photos were edited in B/W by clicking on "Black and White" in the Develop module. I asked them if there's another way I can convert them to B/W that will make them B/W neutral. I haven't heard back.

While I wait for a response, I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem and what they did to remedy it. Any if anyone knows how to convert color RAW images (Fujifilm) to B/W neutral images in such a way as to both satisfy Blurb and eliminate the green.

Ironic the green problem occurred a day before St. Patty's Day!

Any insight or help will be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
 
Here is Blurb's reply:

A slight shift is actually considered normal for print-on-demand, since we use color presses for all our Photo Book and Magazine format printing. (We don't use dedicated black and white presses except for our Black and White Trade formats). With print-on-demand services, images may print print with a slight color shift and still be within tolerances. (A large shift would typically be considered a print defect).

After reviewing your files and doing a bit of analysis of your images, I noticed that your original black and white images are not a truly neutral black and white. They have a slight color cast to begin with. I've seen confirmed it by using the eyedropper tool to measure the color values of a few images. When I sample the color values of your black and white images, I see that those RGB values vary, when a truly neutral black and white image would not.

For example, in the screenshot I've titled "Pg.7", you can see the RGB value is 60, 61, 60. That indicates this is not truly neutral B/W image.

I'm willing to try a reprint this once because it might provide better results. But you should still expect some possible variation in color and brightness.

For best results with your black and white images, we recommend submitting neutral images which you're certain don't have a color cast. You can find our recommended black and white workflow on the following page:
InDesign and the PDF Uploader: https://support.blurb.com/hc/en-us/articles/360026993072

If you'd like to try modifying your black and white images before ordering a new copy, I can create a promo code in the amount of this order. You can then use that code to reorder the new version at no cost to yourself.

Otherwise, we can try a reprint using the existing book. If this was a print defect after all we'll know after you see the replacement. But if it comes out about the same we'll know it was within tolerances and I won't be able to replace it again.

Please let me know whether you'd like to make adjustments first or use the existing file for the replacement.
 
So have you checked what the Blurb representative told you? Are your images true black and white, or do they have a tint of some kind? To check, open an image in Lightroom's Develop module, and move your cursor over the image. In the top right, under the histogram, you should see the RGB (red, green, blue) value of the pixel under the cursor. As you move the cursor around, the RGB values will change accordingly. If the image is true black and white, then the RGB numbers will all be equal (which means the pixels are a shade of pure gray). If there is a tint or some residual color, then the RGB values will differ (as the Blurb representative said). So check this for your images and see what happens.

If there is some color in the images, there are a a couple of places where this might be introduced - even if the image profile is set to "Monochrome". Possibly the "Color Grading" panel might be applying a color to the shadows, mid-tones, or highlights. Or, in the Tone Curve section, some color might be added via the individual tone curve color channels. Check both of these.

Maybe you haven't set these items intentionally, but they might be being introduced by a Develop preset you applied at some stage of your processing.

For what it's worth, I've printed black and white photos in Blurb books without any problems, and have never seen any unwanted color changes.
 
I haven't had a chance to check if there's a color tint in the file. Thank you for sharing a method for doing this! I had no idea how I could check. Should I find unequal RGB values, I have no idea how to fix it. I'm not all that Lightroom savvy. When I edit an image I click on "Black and White" in the develop module then make global adjustments followed by fine tuning adjustments. I don't use presets. How do I check if "Color Grading" or "Tone Curve" are adding a color?

But how can Lightroom add color to an image I've set to Black and White in the develop module? Even if I increase various colors in the B & W section in the Develop module those adjustments are translated into increases in blacks and grays.

Thank you for your help!
 
I haven't had a chance to check if there's a color tint in the file.
Let us know once you have done this. It will help to decide whether the problem is with your image, or with Blurb.
Should I find unequal RGB values, I have no idea how to fix it.
If the problem is with your image, then you will need to check at least the two items I mentioned (there may be others that I haven't thought of).

To check "Color Grading", open up the Color Grading panel in the Develop module. There are four full circles at the top of that panel (plus one icon with three little circles), representing the shadows, midtones, highlights, and global - if any of those circle icons has a dot below it, it means that adjustments have been made. You can click on those circle icons to bring up all the controls for the corresponding tonal range.

To check the "Tone Curve", open up the Tone Curve panel in the Develop module. There are three color circles representing the color channels. Click on each one to see if the tone curve has been changed for that color - by default the curve should a straight line from the bottom left to the top right of the graph.
But how can Lightroom add color to an image I've set to Black and White in the develop module?
Lightroom allows you to do this so that you can apply color effects to basic monochrome images. For example, you can make an image appear "old" or "vintage" by adding a sepia toning. Or make an image look "colder" by adding subtle blue colors to it. But you are right, it is no longer strictly a "black and white" image, so it can be a bit confusing when you are starting out.
 
Hi,
I hovered the cursor over many of the images. ALL of them had equal values in the histogram. Tone Curve was a straight line on the images I checked and no adjustments made in Color Grading. It appears all the images are indeed black and white neutral.

BUT... I think I MIGHT have found the problem. The text templates in the Blurb/Lightroom interface did not have page layouts I wanted to incorporate in the book. So I created the text layouts in Pages, turned them into jpgs, imported the jpgs into Lightroom, then into the book. Because all the text was black, I did not think to change them into black and white in the Develop module. I checked them today. They were color files. So all the photographs in the book are true black and white. But the "text" (jpgs) pages were in color. Could that have caused the green haze/tint on the photographs?
 
I do not know if your text caused any problems, and I do not shoot with Fuji bodies, but I am wondering if their X-Trans sensors could be related to the issue. Their sensors are much more sensitive to green than Bayer sensors. But if you looked at the raw file and the exported file and saw no changes in color values in various parts of the image, then I am mostly doubtful, but still open to hearing from folks that shoot with Fuji to see if they have similar issues.

--Ken
 
It is normally perfectly fine to mix color and black-and-white photos in a single Blurb book - I've done this several times - so I don't think the presence of "color" pages would cause any problem with the other pages.

If your black-and-white photos have equal RGB values *before* you send them to Blurb, but the Blurb customer service person is seeing unequal RGB values, then there must be something strange going on between your system and theirs. Are you using the Lightroom Classic "Book" module to set up and send your book to Blurb? Or some other method?

I wish I knew what was going on, but unfortunately I don't, so it's really just a matter of eliminating possibilities. Maybe someone else has further ideas?
 
I've done many books through LR including plenty of B&W images, mixed B&W and colour, also Fujifilm originals, and I've not had obvious colour casts.

You could generate the PDF, open it in Photoshop, and examine the RGB values there.

Are you seeing this colour cast in normal daylight, not some artificial lighting?

Assuming that you have eliminated the possibility of Color Grading adjustments, my bet would be on something at Blurb or their subcontractor, so have you taken up their offer to do a reprint? I'd expect the output would then be double checked by them.
 
For example, in the screenshot I've titled "Pg.7", you can see the RGB value is 60, 61, 60. That indicates this is not truly neutral B/W image.
Whilst this isn't truly neutral, this feels to me like Blurb might be dodging the real issue instead of blaming you for not sending truly neutral images. The green channel being 1/255 higher than the other two channels is likely to impart a very slight green colour cast at most. The existence of this value may just be a rounding error, perhaps on colour space conversion. Indeed, I cannot remember the intricacies of the sRGB colour space, but it is possible that 60, 61, 60 is actually more neutral than 60, 60, 60 because of factors to do with gamma and the location of the primaries.

You could generate the PDF, open it in Photoshop, and examine the RGB values there.

Are you seeing this colour cast in normal daylight, not some artificial lighting?
These seem, to me, to be sensible ways ahead. Ideally, the source material would be truly neutral. However, if the non-neutrality of the source material is <1% and the colour casts are as bad as @floyd says, I'd look at this more from the point of view of a possible colour shift to green in at least some lighting than anything to do with the source material. If you reprint the original source material, at least you would know if the problem was or was not with the printing of the original book. If you change the source material, then you have changed two things (the source material and the print run), with no idea of what effect each change has had on the output.

@floyd - do you have Acrobat Pro? If you do, it might be possible to preflight the PDF for non-neutrality. Unfortunately, I don't do much preflighting, so I don't have all the available options committed to memory, and my current Acrobat Pro installation was throwing exceptions when I tried to go into preflight just now to see what is possible. I have work to do this afternoon rather than having the time to mess around reinstalling Acrobat.

Another possibility if you have Acrobat Pro is to convert to a greyscale colour space and then to sRGB. As you would be working in 8-bit colour spaces then I would be concerned about introducing unnecessary posterisation into the images. This might nevertheless be interesting to do as an academic exercise, to see to what extent the resulting PDF has R=G=B.

It would be better if Lightroom Classic supported greyscale colour spaces, but that would only help if Blurb supported greyscale colour spaces and promised neutral output. As Blurb uses colour presses then, in the absence of them promising special treatment for black and white material, you will always be at the mercy of their colour management.
 
I've done many books through LR including plenty of B&W images, mixed B&W and colour, also Fujifilm originals, and I've not had obvious colour casts.

You could generate the PDF, open it in Photoshop, and examine the RGB values there.

Are you seeing this colour cast in normal daylight, not some artificial lighting?

Assuming that you have eliminated the possibility of Color Grading adjustments, my bet would be on something at Blurb or their subcontractor, so have you taken up their offer to do a reprint? I'd expect the output would then be double checked by them.
The greenish tint is most noticeable in daylight. Artificial lighting it isn't quite as noticeable.
 
I sent both of the Blurb books to the printer. They examined them and I got this response from Blurb:

"I hope your week was off to a good start. I've finally heard back from our Product Engineering Team.

It looks like a gray gamma 2.2 color profile was applied to your images, which have caused a shift towards the blue-green end of the spectrum, which appears as a cyan cast on the printed book.

To fix this issue, you can try adjusting your images through our recommended workflow on Photoshop. You might also want to check that your monitor is calibrated correctly to ensure that you're seeing accurate colors.

Alternatively, you could convert your images to grayscale mode, which will remove all color information and ensure that there is no color cast. The advantage is that you won't see any color cast, however the blacks in grayscale images are not printed as rich as CMYK. "

I wish I knew more about all these terms folks are using. I know just enough to know I know nothing at all. It seems Blurb is suggesting I open all my Lr images in Ps, then convert them to grayscale images. But they also say that "grayscale images are not printed as rich as CMYK." Why would I want to use grayscale if my photos won't print as well?
 
I sent both of the Blurb books to the printer.
How are you doing this? I am assuming that you are uploading directly from the Lightroom Book module (using the "Send Book to Blurb..." button)?

If so, I'm at a loss. I don't understand why the Blurb people are giving you instructions for Photoshop, when you have stated that you do all your editing in Lightroom. One of the advantages of the Book module is that you shouldn't have to worry about all these other details - it should just work. I would recommend trying to escalate the problem at Blurb... good luck with that!
 
How are you doing this? I am assuming that you are uploading directly from the Lightroom Book module (using the "Send Book to Blurb..." button)?

If so, I'm at a loss. I don't understand why the Blurb people are giving you instructions for Photoshop, when you have stated that you do all your editing in Lightroom. One of the advantages of the Book module is that you shouldn't have to worry about all these other details - it should just work. I would recommend trying to escalate the problem at Blurb... good luck with that!
You're correct, I'm using Lr's Book Module to design the book and upload it to Blurb.
Your point about having me use instructions in Ps when uploading all images from Lr is spot on. In fact, I asked the Blurb representative that exact question: Why are you giving me Ps instructions when I'm using Lr. She said Lr is NOT DESIGNED for Blurb's software! I was shocked! I asked her why would Blurb and Adobe agree to having a Book Module in Lr which is used to upload photos to Blurb if Lr isn't designed to work with Blurb!

Here is my question to Blurb verbatim:
"I’m confused why Blurb would enter an agreement with Adobe to have a “Book” module directly in the Lightroom software which is directly connected with Blurb but not have a recommended workflow to avoid the problem I am experiencing! And then you say “our profile will not appear in Lightroom’s ICC profile list.” WHAT!? Why, why, why is Blurb even associated with Lightroom if Blurb isn’t designed to be used with Lightroom!!!!!??? Does that make any sense to you? I would think if a software provides a direct link to another service, the two services would be meant to work flawlessly together."

Blurb's reply:
"As for the green color cast, we do not have any suggestions on how you can create neutral black and white images using Lightroom. Because Lightroom doesn't support the CMYK color space, our profile will not appear in Lightroom's ICC profile list, therefore we don't have a recommended workflow specified for Lightroom. Would you like to try a reprint using the same file?"
 
For what it's worth, I found this discussion about color casts (both green and magenta) in Blurb books:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/true-b-w-for-blurb-books/m-p/8918092
Thank you for the link! I found it very enlightening. After reading all the comments, it seems if I want to use Blurb I'm going to have to live with the green tint, unless I want to change all the images to grayscale in Ps. Blurb said this would likely eliminate the problem but that converting the images to grayscale would be a loss in the depth of my blacks. So I either live with green or faded/lackluster blacks. Doesn't seem like much of a choice.

So I'm hoping some folks can recommend other online printers similar to Blurb who can print truly neutral black and white images. I thought about local print shops, but the cost would likely be prohibitive.

Any thoughts or recommendations on my next move?
 
Thank you for the link! I found it very enlightening. After reading all the comments, it seems if I want to use Blurb I'm going to have to live with the green tint, unless I want to change all the images to grayscale in Ps. Blurb said this would likely eliminate the problem but that converting the images to grayscale would be a loss in the depth of my blacks. So I either live with green or faded/lackluster blacks. Doesn't seem like much of a choice.

So I'm hoping some folks can recommend other online printers similar to Blurb who can print truly neutral black and white images. I thought about local print shops, but the cost would likely be prohibitive.

Any thoughts or recommendations on my next move?
Miller's used to have a good reputation for books and albums. You could see if they are an option for you.

https://www.millerslab.com/home

--Ken
 
It was noted earlier in this thread, but the best B&W book I have done with Blurb was when I converted all the images to duotones in PS.
Okay, super dumb question... is converting an image to grayscale the same as converting it to a duotone in Ps? If it's not the same thing, how do I convert my images in Lr to duotones in Ps? Then I'd have to import it back into Lr from Ps, right? Does turning it into a TIF change anything from an upload to Blurb perspective?
 
Okay, super dumb question... is converting an image to grayscale the same as converting it to a duotone in Ps? If it's not the same thing, how do I convert my images in Lr to duotones in Ps? Then I'd have to import it back into Lr from Ps, right? Does turning it into a TIF change anything from an upload to Blurb perspective?
A duotone is an RGB image. I am no expert, and the idea was not mine. I know that it would create several additional steps to your workflow, so not ideal. You could do most of the image work in LR, then use Edit-In to get to PS, convert the image, then use Save-As to get the duotone back into LR. My workflow for Blurb books does not use LR, except to house the files. I export sRGB versions of the files and use the open source app Scribus on my Mac (I think there is a Windows distribution) to create the book, working through iterations until I have what I want to print. I then create CMYK files for the final book version to be sent to Blurb. Scribus is similar to Adobe Indesign, and has a steep learning curve, but I like having complete control over the process.
 
Thanks, dasuess51! I appreciate the help!
I wish I knew more about the various file types, e.g. sRGB, CMYK, TIF, RAW, etc. and how they may affect whether I get a green haze.

Here's what I do know. About 70% of my photos were taken with a Fujifilm camera and imported into Lr as RAW files. About 30% of my files were taken with a Nikon camera then imported into Lr as sRAW files. Once in Lr, I take the photos and convert them to black and white by clicking on the "black and white" tab and continue to edit the now black and white images. Maybe three of the 60 I want to put in the book were edited in Ps, usually to remove trash cans or other 'garbage', then brought back into Lr (now those images are TIF files, I believe).

Okay, so now I'm happy with all 60 of my black and white images. So I click on the "Book" module, arrange the images in templates provided by Lr/Blurb, then upload the book to Blurb. I just don't understand why that doesn't get me a book with black and white images. All the images are black/white neutral. I rolled my cursor over various images and all showed equal values in the histogram for RGB.

UGHHHH! I ready to pull the last seven hairs out of my head!
 
Thanks, dasuess51! I appreciate the help!
I wish I knew more about the various file types, e.g. sRGB, CMYK, TIF, RAW, etc. and how they may affect whether I get a green haze.

Here's what I do know. About 70% of my photos were taken with a Fujifilm camera and imported into Lr as RAW files. About 30% of my files were taken with a Nikon camera then imported into Lr as sRAW files. Once in Lr, I take the photos and convert them to black and white by clicking on the "black and white" tab and continue to edit the now black and white images. Maybe three of the 60 I want to put in the book were edited in Ps, usually to remove trash cans or other 'garbage', then brought back into Lr (now those images are TIF files, I believe).

Okay, so now I'm happy with all 60 of my black and white images. So I click on the "Book" module, arrange the images in templates provided by Lr/Blurb, then upload the book to Blurb. I just don't understand why that doesn't get me a book with black and white images. All the images are black/white neutral. I rolled my cursor over various images and all showed equal values in the histogram for RGB.

UGHHHH! I ready to pull the last seven hairs out of my head!
I feel your pain and have made a number of B&W photo books with tinted images through Blurb and others. Fortunately for my sanity and the hairs on MY head, virtually all of my work is now color. Blurb does a decent job with color. And the books I do make are one-offs for myself.
 
Latest response from Blurb after I asked them how I can correctly prepare my Lr images for the Blurb module built into Lr.

"If you need more detailed instructions on how to prepare black and white images on Lightroom, it might be a good idea to communicate with Adobe directly. They are the experts in their software and will be able to provide you with extensive guidance on how to use the software to achieve the desired results."

Looks like I'm calling Adobe! Anyone know a number that would get me to a person/department who would have specific knowledge related to my issue?

Aside: I've been doing a good amount of research online looking for other companies similar to Blurb. I've read a few "Best Online Photography Book Publishers" lists. So far, NONE of the articles have recommended Blurb.
 
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Looks like I'm calling Adobe! Anyone know a number that would get me to a person/department who would have specific knowledge related to my issue?
I do not have a number, but based on many past experiences from forum members, you may find contacting Adobe and getting a helpful answer to be equally, if not more, frustrating. Their forums may be a better bet as they have a number of knowledgeable people who often post there.

This does not solve your issue with Blurb, but you may just want to consider another book publishing company to see how it goes. Bay Photo and White House Custom Color are two photo labs that have reasonably good customer service by phone and email, to name just two. This may not directly address the tint issue, but perhaps you may be able to speak with a person who can give you better guidance?

Good luck,

--Ken
 
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