Laptop comparisons for Lightroom Use

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NJHeart2Heart

NJHeart2Heart

Active Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
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463
Location
Northern NJ, USA
Lightroom Experience
Intermediate
Lightroom Version
Classic
Hello all,
I'm relatively new here. I'm a photo hobbyist, on my second round of trying the "RAW road" and hope to stay on this path. I just installed LR 2.4 on my older laptop after a trial period and am now looking to invest in an upgrade. I currently have an older pc laptop and it runs LR albeit slow. I haven't done much developing at all, but have been working at organizing, keywording and rating my existing pics. I do not intend to do much fancy developing, with no intention at all to do photoshop type stuff. I just want to be able to export my raws into web ready and print ready (8x1's or less) jpgs, but would like to play with syncing and such to make the process faster. Right now my budget is in the $1,''' range, and the following two laptops are going for $135' and 1449 respectively. I'd like opinions, based on the above and the specs below, on what you think might be best. I am currently quite happy with WINXP, but hate Vista from the little playing around I've done with it and would want to upgrade to WIN7 as soon as it's released (which is when?). I am open to going the Mac route, although that means another investment in software that can copy windows, since I have a few other favorite programs that are windows only platforms.
PC: MAC:
15.4" WXGA 128'x8'' widescreen LCD TFT 15.4" LED backlit glossy widescreen 144'x9''
Intel Montevina Core 3 Duo Mobile T95' Dual-Processor (2x2.66ghx/6mb Cache 1'66FSB) Intel Core 2 Duo, 2.53 GHz (2x 2GB SO-DIMMS 6MB shared 1'66MHz DDR3SDRAM [supports up to 4GB])
4GB (2 GB x2) DDR2-8'' PC64'' NVIDIA GeForce 96''M GT and NVIDIA GeForce 94''M w/ 256MB of DDR3 SDRAM shared with main memory
512MB NVIDIA GEForce GO 96''M GT PCI-Express 3D Video 512MB GDDR3
3D Premium Surround sound onboard Built-in stereo speakers, built-in ominidirectional microphone, combined optical digital input/analog line in, combined optical digital output/analog line out
Built-in 1'/1''/1''' Network LAN Built-in 1'/1''/1''' BASE T (Gigabit) Ethernet
5'' GB 72''rpm serial ATA-15' hard drive 32' GB 54''rpm serial ATA
2X Blu-Ray-R/8x Dual Format DVD+-R/=-RW +16x CD-R/RW Combo drive 8x Superdrive (DVD+-R DL/DVD+-RW/CD-RW)
built in 3 in 1 media card reader/writer (*I use SD cards) ----------
56K fax modem -----------
Intel Pro/wireless 53'' 8'2.11 a/gn/ WiFi Link Built-in Airport Extreme Wi-Fi (based on IDDD 8'2.11n draft spec), built-in bluetooth 2.1 +EDR (enhanced data rate) module
Win Vista Home Premium with $29 rebate coupon for Win7 Built in Apple apps?
3x USB 2.' ports [ firewire??? ] 2 USB 2.' ports (up to 48'mps), 1 firewire 8'' (up to 8''mps)
carrying case, 2.' MP web video camera built-in iSight camera, mini display port output port with support for DVI, VGA and dual link DVI (requires adapters, separately)
1 year limited warranty 1 year limited warranty
I would greatly appreciate your opinions- both PC/WIN and on specs regardless of machine.
NJHeart2Heart Dawn
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

The Mac seem more versatile for when you will use more technologies. Altough, you have to add the price of a Windows licence to it so you can boot either Mac OS X or Windows. On the other side, you can't run Mac OS on the PC...

And those LED backlit screens are nice too! And more pixels on screen is an advantage with Lightroom.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Thanks much for the reply Denis. 1 for the Mac...
I thought there was other software out there that would "mirror" windows, that is not actually the windows OS. Hopefully, because I can only imagine Win7 will probably cost a fortune as standalone software...
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Welcome. I'll take a stab at a few of the questions/topics that you have raised. Win7 is to be released in late October, so if you go the PC route, you could buy a machine with XP and wait, buy a machine with Vista and wait, or buy a machine and install an RC version of Win7 and wait.

Regarding your budget, I think that you might have some more affordable options if you are open to looking at machines being sold outside of the normal retail channel. Dell, HP and Lenovo, to name a few, directly sell laptops that are new (usually overstock) or refurbished at quite good prices. Its something to consider. I cannot comment on the CPU because it seems like Intel releases a new CPU every other minute and there there seems to be little logic to their naming relative to performance. Let us know what you decide. I am looking to upgrade my laptop as well.

--Ken
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

I like the Win machine that has the 4GB RAM. If you go the Mac route, you should really bump it up to 4GB. With LR, you really can not have too much RAM. It is truly a multi threaded app and takes advantage of the multi core processor. Often I find that LR is sucking up a full 1GB of memory and hovers between 75'Mb abd 1.1GB. This is about 1' times any other application that I might have running concurrently. Also if the decision is to go the Mac route, you will need Parallels or Fusion to not waste any investment that you have in Windows Apps. These work best with 4GB too.

The machine with the larger, faster HD also has an advantage in managing image storage. However with both, you should consider seconday storage for back-up, Either an attached USB device or a networked fileserver. The Blu-Ray drive might come in handy too.

Since you indicate a preference for a portable computer, you might consider the problem of carrying around all your preciious photos on a hard drive that might be subject to getting lost, stolen or damaged. I archive all my non-current photos off to a network drive. Lightroom does not care where they reside and when you are portable, you probably won't be needing to access them.

I've been using Vista since it came out and would never consider reverting to XP. If you have never experienced Vista on a multicore computer with 3 or more GB RAM, you probably never saw Vista at it's optimum. I have been very happy with Vista and have never experienced any of the negatives touted by the media. I think Win7 will be available in Sept/Oct. and should really remove any reservations anyone has about a Microsoft OS.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Simple clarification: Parallels or Fusion are only needed to run Windows if Windows programs are to be run at same time as the Mac programs and compatibility with all programs is not 1''%. Otherwise, Boot Camp which come free with Mac OS offer the choice to start in either OS altough not both at once and compatibility is 1''%.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Thanks all for the good replies thus far.

Replytoken: Good information. Lots of waiting ;) As for other options, although the mac I quoted came from apple's refurb area (and unfortunately might already be gone), the pc would be custom made by a third party computer builder (www.ibuypower.com) that I heard from another message on this or another board somewhere. I like the idea of using this different "brand" company, as they seem to be competitive (unless I'm ignorant to comparison prices). I have shopped Dell before and don't have a problem with it (it's my desktop currently, although old in computer age), if it's quality hardware (not that I know too much about what constitutes quality). I am really trying to be an informed consumer for this purchase and really want to get a good price (I think I waaaay overpaid for lightroom, so I need to make that loss up by being smart about the laptop price). If you have suggested websites, I'm certainly open to researching alternative sources for laptop systems, mac or PC.

Clee- excellent post- I appreciate the details. Based on the specs I posted, I'm under the impression that the macpro DOES have 4GB... am I interpreting the calculations wrong? The language says 4GB (TWO 2GB SO-DIMMS) of 1'66MHz DDR3 SDRAM; supports up to 4 GB, although maybe it's the last part that I'm misinterpreting?

The pc reads similarly in my eyes: "Memory- 4 GB (2GB x 2) DDR2-8'' PC64'' (notebook memory).

I'm not worried as much about hard drive space. My intent (which I have begun to institute) is to use the hard drive just for newly ingested files; rate them, keyword them, then move them to an external HD as "originals", then do any other work from that source. I'm also slowly bringing my old photos (many of which are jpg scans of film prints) through the same process - from the hard drive "old collection", to the internal hard drive, then back to another external hard drive as "ORIGINALS".

I have 4 external drives right now to cover my archives and backups of both working files and archives. Also, I currently have less than 1'' GB of files, although I do know as I produce more RAW, my space needs will increase exponentially...
As for OS, I don't like the idea of Vista, but I'll put up with it until Win7 comes out, if I choose to go the pc laptop route. With the Mac I'm totally new, so it doesn't matter much what OS version will be on there. I'll be learning mostly from a beginner's standpoint.

Denis- Parellels or Fusion were the programs I was thinking of, but now I'm not sure what they do exactly. I thought these programs allowed you to run windows programs WITHOUT having Windows installed. What you seem to be saying is that whether I use boot camp (this is a new term for me) or Parellels or Fusion, I will need to have a copy of some version of WIN OS?? Oooff.. that could be expensive, and might prohibit me from going the Mac route. Clarification/education would be much appreciated.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

[quote author=NJHeart2Heart link=topic=718'.msg4887'#msg4887' date=1247256871].., I'm under the impression that the macpro DOES have 4GB...
[/quote] Sorry, my math is rusty. (2x 2GB SO-DIMMS ...) does equal 4GB. You should be fine.
Parellels or Fusion were the programs I was thinking of, but now I'm not sure what they do exactly. I thought these programs allowed you to run windows programs WITHOUT having Windows installed. What you seem to be saying is that whether I use boot camp (this is a new term for me) or Parellels or Fusion, I will need to have a copy of some version of WIN OS?? Oooff.. that could be expensive, and might prohibit me from going the Mac route. Clarification/education would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
You are confusing the Mac OS with Linux and WINE. Parallels and Fusion are a virtual machine that sits on top of OSX. They form a virtual environment that seamlessly passes the Windows OS hardware instructions through OSX to the hardware. AFAIK they only run XP, not Vista. If you have a standalone license for XP (Not an OEM license) you can install that. Otherwise you need to buy a legal license. Dual boot is not the best of solutions if you work continuously in both environments. It can be a PIA to do something simple like check you email in one environment while working in another. It is for this reason that I keep a LINUX desktop when I could dual boot into LINUX from my primary computer. For that matter, If your primary reason for an new OS is to run 'industrial strength' applications like Lightroom, Get the OSX box and keep your WinXP box around for the legacy Apps. When you need or want an upgrade on the Legacy app, buy the Mac equivalent and gradually wean yourself off the Win XP box.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Cletus,
Thanks for the information. the makers of the 2 WIN apps i use will not be creating mac versions anytime soon, and since i have a long history w/ both programs, so weaning myself off of them is not feasible. although i would not have any need to run them at the same time as LR2, i'm thinking that a pc/win machine might be a better choice at this point. a shame because i was really "revving" up to possibly become a mac user :)
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

[quote author=NJHeart2Heart link=topic=718'.msg4887'#msg4887' date=1247256871]
Replytoken: Good information. Lots of waiting ;) As for other options, although the mac I quoted came from apple's refurb area (and unfortunately might already be gone), the pc would be custom made by a third party computer builder (www.ibuypower.com) that I heard from another message on this or another board somewhere. I like the idea of using this different "brand" company, as they seem to be competitive (unless I'm ignorant to comparison prices). I have shopped Dell before and don't have a problem with it (it's my desktop currently, although old in computer age), if it's quality hardware (not that I know too much about what constitutes quality). I am really trying to be an informed consumer for this purchase and really want to get a good price (I think I waaaay overpaid for lightroom, so I need to make that loss up by being smart about the laptop price). If you have suggested websites, I'm certainly open to researching alternative sources for laptop systems, mac or PC.
[/quote]

I like Lenovo laptops, and they just overhauled their outlet so it is much easier to search their inventory. I would suggest looking at what they have to offer, even if for comparison purposes only.

--Ken
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

thanks ken. will do so now!
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

I'd second Lenovo - I've had good experience with their durability. I have an HP laptop and like it, but don't use it as my primary machine (I use it when traveling, sitting on the couch, giving presentations, etc.). Honestly, its quality doesn't near that of the Mac (although IMO, I get more bang for the buck out of a PC). I purchased my desktop PC from iBuyPower and would highly recommend them.

As far as Vista is concerned, it isn't quite as bad as everyone wants to report. It takes a bit of getting used to from XP (there are some differences), but I agree with Cletus that Vista w/ 4GB+ of RAM far outweighs any potential downsides of moving from XP. Plus, with Win 7 so close, even if you don't fall in love with it, you'll be able to move on soon.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Thanks Brian, for the reply. I wonder if it was from one of your previous posts that I found ibuypower :icon_idea: If you had to buy a laptop today, do you think you'd go for an ibuypower machine, or a lenovo? I found a nice looking Lenovo:
ThinkPad W5'' (Refurbished) List Price: $2,369.'' | Outlet Price: $1,'86.'' Quick Overview ThinkPad W5'' gives you superior, performance, power management, and multiple wireless connectivity options in a truly flexible mobile workstation. //
ProcessorIntel® Core™2 Duo T96'' (2.8' GHz, 6MB L2, 8'' MHz FSB)
Operating SystemGenuine Windows Vista Business 32
Outlet Part Number4'5L3A1''9
ConditionRefurbished
Display15.'” WSXGA+ (168' X 1'5') TFT, Flexview Display w/ Wide Viewing Angle
Total Memory4GB (2 X 2GB) PC3-85'' DDR3 SDRAM 1'67MHz SODIMM Memory
Hard Drive2''GB, 72''RPM Serial ATA Drive, Disk Encryption
GraphicsAMD M86GL Switchable Graphics 512MB
Optical DeviceDVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer Ultrabay Slim
WirelessIntel WiFi Link 53'' (3x3 AGN)
Mobile BroadbandN/A
Battery6 Cell Lithium Ion Battery (6.5 Hour Run Time)
Limited Warranty1 Year
ColorBlack
BluetoothYes
Keyboard/Pointing DeviceUltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad)
Manufacturing part number4'58CTRL3A1''9
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Sure thing NJHeart2Heart.

It's a tough call really. If it were me, I'd probably go with the Lenovo, but it's a bit of a toss up either way.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you want a new laptop over a desktop? I find that portability is nice, but I much prefer the power. If you already have a monitor, you can get a screamin' PC for about the same cost as the laptop. I spent about $12'' on my iBuyPower machine and got an i7 processor (which is ridiculously fast), 12GB RAM, a nice case, a decent video card.

So, if you have a specific need for the laptop, a Lenovo should treat you pretty well (as would a number of other choices, really). But, if you'll end up working on the laptop on the desk of your home office more often than not, I'd recommend at least looking into a desktop.

Good luck - either way you'll be getting a big speed upgrade which will make a huge difference in editing speed.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

new MacBook Pro 2.8 all the way, come on, no question about it...
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

I think Brian brings up a critical point here: do you absolutely have to have a laptop for photo work? For your budget you could get a desktop solution that far outperforms any of the laptops mentioned here. You could keep your old laptop for occasional "field" work and do your serious photo editing on a faster and better machine. Keep in mind that no laptop display will match the color performance of a good desktop LCD, something you should consider seriously if you're printing your photos.

I use both systems, with the laptop only for initial field acquisition and sorting. I upgraded from a Fujitsu laptop with decent performance to a MacBook Pro with great performance. Neither is as good as my (custom-built) desktop PC that is used for the editing and printing work. You can't really buy a MBP for your budget, but you can get a desktop PC!

Having said all that, I far prefer the MBP over my old Win PC; just the Firewire 8'' alone has sped up my workflow dramatically. I second the need for 4GB (go 8GB on the 17"), fast external file storage and PS scratch disk (eSATA or FW8''). The glossy screen is very controversial, to say the least. In either case, these are not in your budget, so if you must have a laptop you should look for a Win solution.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

[quote author=pknoot link=topic=718'.msg48988#msg48988 date=1247413191]
I think Brian brings up a critical point here: do you absolutely have to have a laptop for photo work? [/quote]For some, (me for one) a laptop is necessary and a second desktop computer is an added expense. It is also an inconvenience when keeping important, needed files/email where you next want to use them. Not having to Sync one computer with the other is a benefit too. My solution was to buy a powerful HP tablet notebook with dual core and lots of memory and designed with the graphics to run as a Windows media center. I also have a 26" monitor and separate keyboard. With is I have a dual monitor capability. I have never felt limited by the notebook. If I did not keep a old minitower around to run LINUX, there would be a lot of freed real estate that I could clutter with other things.
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Frenchy,
Love your enthusiasm, BUT....
How much do those cost, and how much MORE to run my legacy WIN apps (see rest of the conversation above), on it? My budget is stretched at $13'' already...

Brian,
You have an excellent point that no one else asked. However, the problem is my current desktop resides in a non-environment controlled attic (HOT in summer COOOLD in winter), and the only other place to put a desktop would be in a small spare room that holds a litter box (pretty dusty- and would need to reroute my network wires, which would take some effort/time from my brother, who already has to "babysit" me when it comes to electronics).

Plus, we do visit my out of state parents and even in-state inlaws, and often I want to bring my computer with me, so it makes sense to just upgrade the laptop at this stage in our lives.

Dawn
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Peter,
Thanks for chiming in on the conversation. I appreciate the various viewpoints. See above for the laptop vs. desktop debate. To all, here are a few lifestyle points that may "bias" replies to my questions:
I am a HOBBYIST photographer who is JUST starting to shoot RAW only, and doesn't like to do a lot of post-processing. My biggest reason for going with LR2 ( I had ACDSEE pro, which also does RAW editing), was because of my desire to be DAM compliant (a la Peter Krogh) which includes the use of a true cataloging software. I also like the all-in one package of LR2 (again, don't want to waste time moving files from one program to anothe for metadata, vs. editing).
As for the color benefits of a desktop with monitor, I do currently have a decent (to me- don't know how it compares to typical LCD screens) monitor which I have successfully hooked up to my laptop, though I haven't tried the dual window workflow yet.
I want good quality color in a laptop, but professional level color management is not critical to my needs. More important to me is a fast, efficient workflow that will allow me to first of all, thoroughly manage/organize my photos, do basic edits, and export jpgs for processing and "flickering" with as little processing pain as possible.
My current laptop was supposed to be MY gift 2 years ago. My husband and I enjoy sitting together doing our own thing in the livingroom (we have small house with no space for a comfortable "computer corner" in livingroom), but once my husband got wind that he could be on the internet while watching TV, it has gotten to the point where he and I are constantly vying for it's use at night. I NEED my OWN DEDICATED laptop that I can use for my photo work, while my husband can just "cruise" the internet for leisure. We both use our desktop occasionally for when we need to print stuff, and perhaps we'll upgrade that as well, but that will be a joint decision down the line. This Laptop will be MINE! (Have I emphasized the MINE enough? hehehe).

Thanks for listening and for keep the comments coming. At this point I think my decision has now become WHICH WIN machine to buy rather than Mac vs. WIN. It seems clear that for my budget and needs right now a WIN machine will best serve my purposes...

So, any other opinions on what a buyer can get in a laptop for around $13'' ?
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Clee- Yes, I agree totally with you regarding the benefits of the laptop. There's one big difference between you and me though. You clearly had a much larger budget then I did for that purpose. So, although I am still totally bent on a laptop, I recognize that I'm getting someething perhaps less powerful vs. the power I can get out of a desktop for the same budget.
Dawn
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

[quote author=NJHeart2Heart link=topic=718'.msg49'3'#msg49'3' date=1247495956]
Clee- Yes, I agree totally with you regarding the benefits of the laptop. There's one big difference between you and me though. You clearly had a much larger budget then I did for that purpose. So, although I am still totally bent on a laptop, I recognize that I'm getting someething perhaps less powerful vs. the power I can get out of a desktop for the same budget.
Dawn
[/quote]Amazon has HP Laptops similar to mine for Less than $9''USD. The screen is not huge, but if you already have a monitor, this is not an issue. For another $4''-5'' you can add a 24-26" monitor and you are still less than either of your first two quotes.
http://www.amazon.com/Touchsmart-tx...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1247496648&sr=8-12
 
Re: Laptop comparisons - PC vs. Mac and overal specs?

Thanks Clee. I like that, but I do want a larger screen to start, since the monitor is in the inhospitable attic, which means I won't want to deal with it unless absolutely necessary for some critical comparison work. Here's what I'm looking at now, and seriously considering grabbing it. In fact emailing my brother now for his opinion:

ProcessorIntel® Core™2 Duo T96'' (2.8' GHz, 6MB L2, 1'66 MHz FSB)
Operating SystemGenuine Windows Vista Business 32
Outlet Part Number2'8L3B57'3
ConditionRefurbished
Display15.4” WSXGA+ (168' X 1'5') TFT
Total Memory4GB (2 X 2GB) PC3-85'' DDR3 SDRAM 1'67MHz SODIMM Memory
Hard Drive32'GB, 54''RPM Serial ATA 2.5" Drive
GraphicsAMD M86M Switchable Graphics 256MB
Integrated CameraNo
Optical DeviceDVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer Ultrabay Slim
WirelessIntel WiFi Link 53'' (3x3 AGN)
Mobile BroadbandN/A
Battery9 Cell Lithium Ion Battery (6.' Hour Run Time)
Limited Warranty1 Year
ColorBlack
BluetoothYes
Fingerprint ReaderNo
Keyboard/Pointing DeviceUltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad)
The only thing I don't like is that my bro. said to get a nvidia graphics card..... It also doesn't state what ports are included (I would prefer to have at leat 3 usb and a firewire 8'' based on bro's recommendation)
 
Well that one's now out, because bro insists I need nvidia card :eek: and firewire, neither of which this has. Found another site though (www.powernotebooks.com) that has promise in their "PowerPro P 15:2". Consistently high customer ratings too (winds up ibuypowers ratings are all over the board- from "love them" to "hate HATE them").
Dawn
 
[quote author=NJHeart2Heart link=topic=718'.msg49'4'#msg49'4' date=12475'1771]
The only thing I don't like is that my bro. said to get a nvidia graphics card..... It also doesn't state what ports are included (I would prefer to have at leat 3 usb and a firewire 8'' based on bro's recommendation)
[/quote]

Given the prior problems with nVidia drivers and LR, I am not too certain about his recommendation, unless you have a specific need beyond LR. If you truly want a budget buster, consider Lenovo's G53' for $6''. 3GB of RAM and a T64'' processor. No, its not as fast as other machines you are considering, but it will leave you with a lot of funds in the bank. Something to consider.

--Ken
 
Thanks for the expanding on the reasoning for a laptop. It does sound like that is the best way for you to go.

Any reason you're brother is pushing for nVidia? It's definatley not a bad brand, but isn't necessarily what you need, based on your description. Lightroom doesn't (currently) take advantage of a video card as much as it does processor/lots of RAM.

Speaking of that, if you get 4GB+ of RAM, make sure it has 64-bit Vista. That will take full advantage of the RAM (32-bit Vista can only address about 3GB of RAM, so if it comes with more, it will be largely unused).

Other than the 64-bit piece, I'd say the laptop you spec'd above would fit you perfectly.

Just for fun, I thought I'd include another option:
I mentioned my HP earlier... and while I wish it 'felt' a little sturdier, it comes close to what you described needing and comes in well under budget.
Here is a link to one that is very similar (my current model isn't being sold any more). As it happens, it even comes with an nVidia card. It also includes an eSata port, which as long as you get a compatible external hard drive, is just as fast as FireWire. (maybe even faster, I believe, but don't quote me on that). The one downside is that its screen resolution is a little lower, which could be a deal breaker.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9'27714&st=hp+laptop&type=product&id=1218'1'176167

Again, most of what you've already mentioned and listed will suit you well. I'd recommend identifying your must haves (screen res, RAM, etc.) and pick the brand you're most comfortable with.
 
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