keywords!

[markbolton]

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but i did look on the search and couldnt see anything. I have a couple of questions.... On upgrading from 1.4 to 2.1, I seem to have lost my hierarchy of keywords. They are all there, but as a list rather than a hierarchy... why would that have happened? In fact, there seems to be a hierarchy for the first few words (the ones that I began with an exclamation mark... ie '!colour')... but not the rest...

Secondly, I am desperate to 'tidy up' the list... delete a few words, nest some within others, etc etc, but am worried that I will then mess about with the image metadata that is associated with those words in my 'finished' images... if I saved all information back to the files, and then reorganised the keyword list, would that ensure that all my existing images keep what they have so far? I would like to perhaps import the controlled vocab list (Reicks) and take that as my starting point for a new 'super organised ' list... would that be possible if I save all images with what they have so far? thanks gurus for your help in advance! Mark

 

[Brad Snyder]

Hi, I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but i did look on the search and couldnt see anything. I have a couple of questions.... On upgrading from 1.4 to 2.1, I seem to have lost my hierarchy of keywords. They are all there, but as a list rather than a hierarchy... why would that have happened? In fact, there seems to be a hierarchy for the first few words (the ones that I began with an exclamation mark... ie '!colour')... but not the rest...

No idea on that one, sorry ....

Secondly, I am desperate to 'tidy up' the list... delete a few words, nest some within others, etc etc, but am worried that I will then mess about with the image metadata that is associated with those words in my 'finished' images... if I saved all information back to the files, and then reorganised the keyword list, would that ensure that all my existing images keep what they have so far?
[COLOR=#''''ff]
Yes, you can fiddle with the keywords all you like, the changes will reflect in the pertinent image files. E.g. fixing 'tigre' to 'tiger' will make the change in all files with 'tigre'. Dragging 'tiger' into a hierarchy will again update all the related image files. Deleting keywords will remove them from any applicable images, after a warning. [/COLOR]


I would like to perhaps import the controlled vocab list (Reicks) and take that as my starting point for a new 'super organised ' list... would that be possible if I save all images with what they have so far? thanks gurus for your help in advance!

[COLOR=#''''ff]Yes, I did that exact thing. I would experiment with a sample/backup catalog first, but the CVKC should import as a separate hierarchal branch under the heading CVKC. After fooling around with it a bit, I deconstructed it rather severely to abstract the sections that make sense in my context.[/COLOR]

Mark

I'm not sure exactly what you mean/intend by 'saving images with what they have so far'. The image data is always saved in the LR database, but the added security of externally writing the XMP metadata, will never hurt.

I'd highly recommend backups first, and a period of experimentation with test catalogs, before working with the live catalog(s).

You can experiment easily with keywords, by 'Exporting Keywords', creating a simple test catalog, and 'Importing Keywords' to it. Examining the intermediate text file created by exporting keywords can be instructive as well.

 

[markbolton]

Thanks Brad for that. Yo say...
[COLOR=#''''ff]Yes, you can fiddle with the keywords all you like, the changes will reflect in the pertinent image files. E.g. fixing 'tigre' to 'tiger' will make the change in all files with 'tigre'. Dragging 'tiger' into a hierarchy will again update all the related [/COLOR]

My keywords in LR are in such a mess that I really want to radically 'sort them out' However, I don't want to mess with what I've already done (thousands of images saved as TIFFs and keyworded in a mixture of different software applications including LR). If I change the keyword list now (ie perhaps use CVK), nest some of them, delete a lot etc etc, will it effect the existing image files if I do a synchronise metadata across a hard drive with some of these images on it? And if I create a temp catalogue with a new set of keywords in it, what would be the easiest way of replacing my existing keyword list with my new list once its ready and set up? Thanks for all your help, Mark

 

[Brad Snyder]

Mark, I started to reply, and realized I needed to get a few things clear in my mind first. Let me think, and I'll get back.

Anyone else, please feel free to chime in.

 

[Brad Snyder]

Are all the images of interest currently cataloged in LR?

If I change the keyword list now (ie perhaps use CVK), nest some of them, delete a lot etc etc, will it effect the existing image files if I do a synchronise metadata across a hard drive with some of these images on it?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I'll follow up on the 'adding new keyword' structure later.

 

[markbolton]

yes all images are catalogued in LR. what i worry about is that LR will change the keywording on my finished TIFFs that are keyworded correctly, if I sync the metadata by doing a synchronise folder (will it?) once I have altered the keyword list...actually, the finished TIFF are all on one seperate HD, so in theory I could just avoid sync'ing that HD?... sorry if I seem confused! M

 

[Brad Snyder]

I'm still not quite following. Don't you want the TIFFs to have the same keywording as the catalog?

I'm not sure synch folder is the correct operation here. I believe as you get the keywords straightened away, you'll be 'Saving Metadata to File' (ctrl-S).

Hmm, once again, I have to go experiment a little with TIFFs, (don't use 'em myself). I'm not sure whether a metadata save will update the TIFF standard metadata, or just the LR XMP metadata wrapper segment (which is how it processes the 'non-destructive' editing.) How that metadata gets stored may drastically impact your workflow for RGB types.

Truly, the best advice I can give you is to create a simple subset catalog, with disposable backed-up files, and fiddle with it.

I'll be back after I get a chance to play with a TIFF or two.

 

[Brad Snyder]

OK, picking up where I left off on the TIFFs.

For all files except camera-raw, Lr stores the XMP metadata in the actual image file. In addition those file types also have designated schemas for storing other standard image data like Exif and IPTC. My concern was that I was afraid that a simple Lr metadata save operation would only update the XMP metadata, and not update the Exif and IPTC, and that TIFF/JPG metadata updates would require a full Lr export. Clearly that would be a major hassle.

From some relatively simplistic experiments, it appears to me that all the writable metadata *is* being updated during the metadata save.

Mark, this elaborate train of thought occurred to me because I work only most strictly raw, and when I need an image external to Lr, I export it, thus 'baking-in' the metadata changes. Since your legacy TIFF files are usable as is (provided you're not making develop adjustments) I wanted to be sure the metadata was updated. Obviously, should you be editing/exporting the TIFFs, this concern is moot.

Again, I'd suggest experimenting with an image or two, and test compatibility with any downstream apps before jumping in the deep end.

When I catch my breath, I'll describe how I moved to a new keyword structure which incorporated pieces of Reicks' CVKC.

 

[kwdaves]

:frown:If the hierarchical keywords were created in Windows/Windows Live Photo Gallery, exporting the keywords from LR to Tiff's and Jpeg's with embedded hierarchical keyords will create a mess. Lightroom cannot be configured to automatically insert a "/" (the hierarchical keyword delimiter/separator Microsoft uses) between hierarchical keywords on export, so they will all appear as top level keywords.