Keep rotated image when aligning it with "Guided" option?

[Biff]

Lightroom Version Number

8.2

Operating System

1. Windows 10

How could one keep rotated image when addionally aligning it with "Guided" option? Or vice versa, first align it then rotate it.

 

[Umberto Cocca]

If I get your question correctly, you want to keep a straightened image (with guided correctionł and a rotated image available for comparison. One option is to create a virtual copy of the image and apply different adjustments.
If you want 1st to straighten the horizon and 2nd to correct perspective, the sequence of the 2 operations is irrelevant.

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[Biff]

If I get your question correctly, you want to keep a straightened image (with guided correctionł and a rotated image available for comparison.

Sorry for my confusing expression, no. I want to align an image with the guided option. After (or vice versa, first rotate then align) I want to rotate the image and keep the the guided lines like they are, parallel to the right / left edges and rotate the rest of the image. Or expressed in another question: how could I align 3 (or more) lines (e.g. 3 buildings which are not plumb respectively each of them is crooked differently from the others) which have different angles to the left / right image edges?

 

[Johan Elzenga]

As usual, an example of such an image would say more than a thousand words...

 

[clee01l]

First step is the Guided Upright. The Second step is to use the Crop/angle function to rotate using the angle tool. The Guided upright tool always starts with the original image even if you have rotated image, it reverts to unrotated image before you can apply the guides.

 

[Biff]

As usual, an example of such an image would say more than a thousand words...

How could I all 3 lines vertically aligned:

With that angle function on the right at the bottom? When I use it the guided lines will be turned as well, so they seem to be needles.

 

[Umberto Cocca]

You can't align those 3 lines vertically. It is not a perspective adjustment. If the three lines are not parallel in real life, they won't be in the adjusted photo.

Have you corrected the photo for the lens distorsion?

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[Biff]

If the three lines are not parallel in real life, they won't be in the adjusted photo.

Actually I do not think those lines are not parallel in real life.

Have you corrected the photo for the lens distorsion?

No, I didn't. Does the lens distorsion correct the aligning as well or the pincushion and barrel distortion only?

 

[Biff]

So does lens distorsion correct round distortion only?

 

[Umberto Cocca]

Only corrects round distortions, and vignetting. But it can help in the straightening process, which requires straight lines as starting points.

Can you post one of such images with the 3 lines you are talking about? Not a zoomed screenshot, not a drawing. The image.

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[Johan Elzenga]

It’s clear that you can’t align those three lines with the tools in Lightroom, because that is not a perspective correction but requires a distortion. You need to go to Photoshop for this.

 

[Biff]

Only corrects round distortions, and vignetting. But it can help in the straightening process, which requires straight lines as starting points.

Yes, if am right one first should correct the distortions with the lens correction and after use the guided lines (or an other option to align) and not vice versa, is that right?

It’s clear that you can’t align those three lines with the tools in Lightroom, because that is not a perspective correction

Alright, so there is no way to do it with Lightroom.

Can you post one of such images with the 3 lines you are talking about? Not a zoomed screenshot, not a drawing. The image.

Yes, here they are, attached.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

There are two things you can do here. First of all, choose your vertical guides carefully. That blue building on the left is not the most important building, so why place a guide there? Place it on that tower, because the tower is far more important. That blue building may have slanted sides, so always try different options if it doesn't work the first time.

Then place one horizontal guide to make sure the horizon is levelled. Don't try to do this by rotating the image, because that will rotate everything. Here's how it looks in Camera Raw, which is the same as in Lightroom.

 

[Umberto Cocca]

Oh ok, now I think I understand what is happening here. You should be able to align that image given that it is not a result of panorama stitching. The problem is that the taller buildings are not "vertical" but tapered. Also try to be closer to the edge of buildings when using guided tool.

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[Biff]

Thank you very much!

That blue building on the left is not the most important building, so why place a guide there? Place it on that tower, because the tower is far more important. That blue building may have slanted sides, so always try different options if it doesn't work the first time.

Yes, the blue building, slanted lines, I was not sure about that. But anyway, if the lines really are slanted it does not look good anyway. It had tried to straighten the red ball tower but then the blue building looked to scrooked or something else did respectively the buildings near the left edge would be very showy if their lines would not be straighten. I even had tried the right horizontal line you took, without success.

Then place one horizontal guide to make sure the horizon is levelled. Don't try to do this by rotating the image, because that will rotate everything. Here's how it looks in Camera Raw, which is the same as in Lightroom.

A horizontal line, did not had the idea at all. I even would not have known where / what the horizon is. But, why does (is that the sole cause for it?) it work with a horizontal guide line? Your orientation for the horizontal line are the points (not a line) at the very left and very right side?

Unbelievable, I do not get it aligned like you do, I do not understand at all:

Ye

Oh ok, now I think I understand what is happening here. You should be able to align that image given that it is not a result of panorama stitching.

Yes, no stitching, but I am not.

The problem is that the taller buildings are not "vertical" but tapered. Also try to be closer to the edge of buildings when using guided tool.

Yes, closer, but I do not make it at all anyway. Yes tapered, very hard to recognize, I was not sure. The red ball building was suspicious to be tapered, slanted but obviously it is not. But John did it perfectly anyway. Tapered or whatever or not.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

A horizontal line, did not had the idea at all. I even would not have known where / what the horizon is. But, why does (is that the sole cause for it?) it work with a horizontal guide line? Your orientation for the horizontal line are the points (not a line) at the very left and very right side?

Yes, I took two points that are on the horizon. A single horizontal guide on the horizon will level the horizon. This only works after you have placed two vertical guides already.

You can also use two horizontal guides, but that is meant for horizontal perspective correction. It is a lesser-known correction, but it works exactly the same way. Just like you will need vertical perspective correction if you tilted your camera upwards (or downwards) when you shot the scene, you will need horizontal perspective correction if you shot under a horizontal angle.

Imaging you shoot a wall with a window right in the middle. If you stand in front of that window, you will see a reflection of yourself in the window. If you stand to the right or to the left and still point the camera at the window, then you won’t see a reflection but now your horizontal lines will not be parallel to each other. Placing two horizontal guides will correct for that.

 

[Biff]

Yes, I took two points that are on the horizon.

Or what one considers to be the horizon or is that the real horizon? I guess, the distances from the photographer' s position to the left and the right horizon line / shore will be different.

A single horizontal guide on the horizon will level the horizon.

But it will not effect the vertical aligning of an image? So why the horizontal guide line?

You can also use two horizontal guides, but that is meant for horizontal perspective correction. It is a lesser-known correction, but it works exactly the same way. Just like you will need vertical perspective correction if you tilted your camera upwards (or downwards) when you shot the scene, you will need horizontal perspective correction if you shot under a horizontal angle.

So to do a perspective correction you alsways need two guide lines? Or twhat is the difference to those ones:

Why does my correction above not work, not align the buildings / image correctly, what did I wo wrong or what is the difference to your aligning?

 

[clee01l]

Or what one considers to be the horizon or is that the real horizon? I guess, the distances from the photographer' s position to the left and the right horizon line / shore will be different.


But it will not effect the vertical aligning of an image? So why the horizontal guide line?


So to do a perspective correction you alsways need two guide lines? Or twhat is the difference to those ones:

Why does my correction above not work, not align the buildings / image correctly, what did I wo wrong or what is the difference to your aligning?

Your original issue concerned Guided Upright. Guided up requires 2 (to be) parallel lines and one (to be) right angle to it. The two parallel lines can be vertical or horizontal. When I have perspective correction that involves tapered buildings I draw my line in the vertical portion of the building not along one of the slanted edges. There are four other automatic options where LR uses built in algorithms to adjust the image:

• Auto — LR chooses an adjustment based upon the most pleasing corrections.
• Level — LR seeks a nearly horizontal line and makes it level and tilts the rest of the image to conform
• Vertical — LR seeks a nearly vertical line and makes it vertical and tilts the rest of the image to conform
• Full — LR seeks apparent horizontal and vertical lines and makes makes them perpendicular to each other and tilts the rest of the image to conform. Often distortion can occur.

Here are two tries (one vertical dominant, the other horizontal dominant). The vertical lines are through the theoretical centerline of one or two buildings. The one with two horizontal lines takes the water line along the boat (water seeks its own level) and the distant horizon. I think I like the Guided Upright with two horizontal lines looks best. You can try all 6 options to experiment with different outcomes.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

Or what one considers to be the horizon or is that the real horizon? I guess, the distances from the photographer' s position to the left and the right horizon line / shore will be different.

Yes, they might be, so it’s what the viewer considers as the horizon.

But it will not effect the vertical aligning of an image? So why the horizontal guide line?

It makes sure that the image looks right. Vertical lines combined with a crooked horizon don’t look right.

So to do a perspective correction you alsways need two guide lines? Or twhat is the difference to those ones:

Why does my correction above not work, not align the buildings / image correctly, what did I wo wrong or what is the difference to your aligning?

In theory those sliders do the same. They tilt the image, so the perspective is corrected. They need a perfectly leveled horizon however, because otherwise you tilt along the wrong axis. That is why Guided is so much easier to use.

 

[Biff]

...and one (to be) right angle to it.

Which line or what is it? How can one get the right angle?

When I have perspective correction that involves tapered buildings I draw my line in the vertical portion of the building not along one of the slanted edges.

For example for this building somewhere in its middle, not the outer line:

Auto — LR chooses an adjustment based upon the most pleasing corrections.
Level — LR seeks a nearly horizontal line and makes it level and tilts the rest of the image to conform
Vertical — LR seeks a nearly vertical line and makes it vertical and tilts the rest of the image to conform Full — LR seeks apparent horizontal and vertical lines and makes makes them perpendicular to each other and tilts the rest of the image to conform. Often distortion can occur.

All of those mostly or almost always do not work correctly with me, there almost always is a slight difference between the lines and the image edges.

Yes, the image with the two (your) horizontal lines is the best. Very sorry, I do not understand why in that image all of the buildings / lines are aligned correctly. You only added 3 guided lines? One vertical and 2 horizontal (the other ones are the ones I did?). Cannot make it work here, even with 4 guided lines. Or did you align the image additionally to my aligning? So is it aligned twice?

In theory those sliders do the same. They tilt the image, so the perspective is corrected. They need a perfectly leveled horizon however, because otherwise you tilt along the wrong axis. That is why Guided is so much easier to use.

Howsoever I position the guided lines I do not get the image aligned correctly. What am I missing?

 

[Johan Elzenga]

Howsoever I position the guided lines I do not get the image aligned correctly. What am I missing?

The image you posted in #15 looks aligned to me...

 

[Biff]

May be it does because of the copy, the blue building looks crooked here in the original:

 

[Johan Elzenga]

It looks a bit curved. That would be a lens correction problem, not a perspective correction problem. Or the building is really like that.

 

[Biff]

It looks a bit curved. That would be a lens correction problem,

I had tried some lens corrections without success, the most little jump distance one can use obviously is 0,1.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

Maybe you should just accept it the way it is. Nobody (except you) is going to zoom in 800% just to check if some building is perhaps one pixel out of being aligned.