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Is Lightroom Classic end-of-life?

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PhilBurton

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We are up to 225 messages in this thread.
  1. Is that some sort of record for this forum?
  2. Have we beaten this issue to death?
  3. Should we have started new threads for some of these messages?
  4. Is anyone still unclear about the choice of Classic (awful name!) or LR CC?
Phil
 
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We are up to 225 messages in this thread.
  1. Is that some sort of record for this forum?
  2. Have we beaten this issue to death?
  3. Should we have started new threads for some of these messages?
  4. Is anyone still unclear about the choice of Classic (awful name!) or LR CC?
Phil
Number 2.
Maybe a separate forum for Grumblers. One for those griping that there is no longer a perpetual license and another for those anxious about the future of Lightroom Classic.
 

Hoggy

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Number 2.
Maybe a separate forum for Grumblers. One for those griping that there is no longer a perpetual license and another for those anxious about the future of Lightroom Classic.
Except 1 & 2 and 1 & 3 may overlap quite a bit.. (ETA: Unless you were referring to just the 2 from the 2nd sentence. :) )
But I do occasionally like beating a metaphorical dead horse, at times.
:D

I think John B's humorous interjection on another forum is rather apt here, as well:
Monty
 
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ocanannain

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FYI --- Here's a comprehensive video demo of the new features in Lightroom Classic by a person who has been using the program for about a week. Conclusion: the upgrades are impressive.
 

Hoggy

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FYI --- Here's a comprehensive video demo of the new features in Lightroom Classic by a person who has been using the program for about a week. Conclusion: the upgrades are impressive.
It seems like you might be experiencing the problems with posting links, that I just experienced as well... I had to use the 'link' feature from the toolbar to get it through. I don't remember that being a problem before, so something in the board software must have changed.

............

Anyhow, yes, the program on its own merit has gone through some rather impressive improvements in terms of speed, and the wonderfully useful range masking.. So, kudos to the coders on that!! They deserve a HUGE raise in light of Adobe's multi-billion dollar profits!

It's just the marketing department, that, well... :mooning:... :whistling:
 
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ocanannain

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It seems like you might be experiencing the problems with posting links, that I just experienced as well... I had to use the 'link' feature from the toolbar to get it through. I don't remember that being a problem before, so something in the board software must have changed.

............
I'm seeing the video fine in my Chrome browser, so I'm not seeing the problem.
 

Hoggy

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Hmm... Then it must be something with Fx Nightly and the black (beta) forum skin. :confused:

EDIT: DOH! It seems to have been that damn NoScript addon... I'm starting to think that addon is more trouble than it's worth. Just like when I tried it out long ago.
oops! :oops:
 
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PhilBurton

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Hmm... Then it must be something with Fx Nightly and the black (beta) forum skin. :confused:

EDIT: DOH! It seems to have been that damn NoScript addon... I'm starting to think that addon is more trouble than it's worth. Just like when I tried it out long ago.
oops! :oops:
Hoggy,

I like to "armor up" my browser to limit cookies, banner ads, etc. However, NoScript basically cripples modern websites that use scripts to display a page properly. There is a tradeoff between excellent security and basic useability. For complete security, disconnect your computer permanently from the Internet and never import any files on USB drives. Sure it is safe, but at what cost?
 

Hoggy

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I like to "armor up" my browser to limit cookies, banner ads, etc. However, NoScript basically cripples modern websites that use scripts to display a page properly. There is a tradeoff between excellent security and basic useability. For complete security, disconnect your computer permanently from the Internet and never import any files on USB drives. Sure it is safe, but at what cost?
Agree. Although for me, the reason I installed the new NoScript WebExtension version was strictly for hopeful speed advantages - first, in the hopes of making Amazon at least relatively speedy. <shudders> Eww, I just hate going onto Amazon these days - just horrendously slow for many years now.
 

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FYI --- Here's a comprehensive video demo of the new features in Lightroom Classic by a person who has been using the program for about a week. Conclusion: the upgrades are impressive.
So it boils down to the following.
1. New luminosity mask.
2. New color mask
3. New process engine, with unknown changes and consequences.
4. Performance improvements.

The selling point of s subscription is gradual releases instead of major releases. How has that held?

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
 

Hoggy

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So it boils down to the following.
1. New luminosity mask.
2. New color mask
3. New process engine, with unknown changes and consequences.
4. Performance improvements.

The selling point of s subscription is gradual releases instead of major releases. How has that held?
My guess is that if they actually hadn't decided to cut perpetual, long ago, then maybe they were having trouble deciding when to make that cutoff point for a new possible perpetual version. And after deciding that even with the new Classic 7 improvements on top of the prior CC features, that it may not have been enough to consider it a 'groundbreaking' LR 7 -- that could have firmed up their decision to drop perpetual. And now that that decision has [regretfully] happened, better new features could now happen at each 'point' release going forward without worrying about giving people 'too much' for a new perpetual version down line.

While that may be construed as a Good Thing, I hope they at least consider the idea of a fully functioning 'escape clause' after say, 3/4/5 years of subscribing. That would in effect, count as a $360/$480/$600 perpetual version without having to delineate when to add which features for which major perpetual release. Well, we can hope.. :nailbiting:
 
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tspear

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My guess is that if they actually hadn't decided to cut perpetual, long ago, then maybe they were having trouble deciding when to make that cutoff point for a new possible perpetual version. And after deciding that even with the new Classic 7 improvements, that it may not have been enough to consider it a 'groundbreaking' LR 7 -- that could have firmed up their decision to drop perpetual. And now that that decision has [regretfully] happened, better new features could now happen at each 'point' release going forward without giving people 'too much' for a new perpetual version down line.

While that may be construed as a Good Thing, I hope they at least consider the idea of a fully functioning 'escape clause' after say, 3/4/5 years of subscribing. That would in effect, count as a $360/$480/$600 perpetual version without having to delineate when to add which features for which major perpetual release. Well, we can hope.. :nailbiting:
Yeah. I do not buy it.
Like dehaze, they could have added the new mask capabilities and the process engine without diverging the code base. Control access via the license manager. Not really that hard. The only one which is really problematic without diverging the code is the performance improvements.
If Adobe is unable to make such smaller releases when they needed features to convince customers to switch to a subscription model and they were unable to deliver why should the situation have changed?
In addition, I know a few people who did not know the perpetual model existed because it was effectively off the Adobe website two years ago, they are now pissed. So Adobe made this largely a self fulfilling prophecy.

Tim

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One for those griping that there is no longer a perpetual license and another for those anxious about the future of Lightroom Classic.
While we had
1. demise of perpetual
2. rename to Classic
3. intro of CC Cloud

My biggest concern was the looming demise of Classic and a new CC Cloud which was not a fit replacement for the previous CC.

Wrap this up in a pile of Adobe PR amateurism and you have a recipe for angst.

Of most interest to me right now are...

a. Waiting for Tom to respond (he did invite us to ask questions, but has not answered any of them and my post is still awaiting moderation).
b. Release notes for Classic 1.1 and 2.0(if ever)
c. Release notes for CC Cloud 1. and 2.0 (when it happens)

In the interim, this thread reflects a casebook on how not to really turn off your most loyal customers and push them towards other horizons.
 

Ad Astra

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We have had time to absorb and reflect on Adobe's announcements for Lightroom Classic and CC.

There are a number of well documented comments and concerns in this thread. I believe this forum and Victoria's support for Lightroom have the gravitas to merit a reply from Adobe.

On reading more about Lightroom CC I have concerns about the artificial intelligence (AI) being discussed and the development of Adobe Sensei. I would not want Adobe, or any other company, running some AI program on my images and using machine learning to tag and do other unknown things with my images. As such I am firmly in the disk and folders approach and I am keen to understand Adobe's plans for the future of Lightroom Classic.
 
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We have had time to absorb and reflect on Adobe's announcements for Lightroom Classic and CC.

There are a number of well documented comments and concerns in this thread. I believe this forum and Victoria's support for Lightroom have the gravitas to merit a reply from Adobe.

On reading more about Lightroom CC I have concerns about the artificial intelligence (AI) being discussed and the development of Adobe Sensei. I would not want Adobe, or any other company, running some AI program on my images and using machine learning to tag and do other unknown things with my images. As such I am firmly in the disk and folders approach and I am keen to understand Adobe's plans for the future of Lightroom Classic.
I have to agree on both accounts. Perhaps it might have come across better if Tom had just penned a letter and asked Victoria to post it. Having him drop in and post and then leave everybody without a reply, whether he can provide one or not, just comes across in a less than ideal manner.

Regarding Sensei, I totally agree. I need to read up more on it, but I am not especially pleased that when I am paying for a service, my files are not just scanned, but tagged in a manner that I have no ability to access or control. This seems to being done purely for Adobe's sake, but I am more than happy to be pointed to more information about it that might cause me to see it differently. If the service was free and this process was made clear, then I might take a different tune about the whole affair, although I still would not participate, but doing this to paying customers just does not seem like Adobe really has any of my interests or concerns at heart in this matter.

I initially thought that this whole affair would fully die down, but I keep seeing many articles about Adobe alternatives that are appearing on many mainstream photo websites, and they just keep coming. I do wonder if this is going to eventually be seen as Adobe imitating Apple with dictating where the future is (pulling ports or changing standards on hardware) or if it will be Adobe imitating Coca-Cola with New Coke?

--Ken
 

PhilBurton

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I have to agree on both accounts. Perhaps it might have come across better if Tom had just penned a letter and asked Victoria to post it. Having him drop in and post and then leave everybody without a reply, whether he can provide one or not, just comes across in a less than ideal manner.

Regarding Sensei, I totally agree. I need to read up more on it, but I am not especially pleased that when I am paying for a service, my files are not just scanned, but tagged in a manner that I have no ability to access or control. This seems to being done purely for Adobe's sake, but I am more than happy to be pointed to more information about it that might cause me to see it differently. If the service was free and this process was made clear, then I might take a different tune about the whole affair, although I still would not participate, but doing this to paying customers just does not seem like Adobe really has any of my interests or concerns at heart in this matter.

I initially thought that this whole affair would fully die down, but I keep seeing many articles about Adobe alternatives that are appearing on many mainstream photo websites, and they just keep coming. I do wonder if this is going to eventually be seen as Adobe imitating Apple with dictating where the future is (pulling ports or changing standards on hardware) or if it will be Adobe imitating Coca-Cola with New Coke?

--Ken
Ken

It is entirely possible that Sensei is really about tagging files just for our use. But without disclosures, the rumors and the "conspiracy theories" are running wild.

Phil
 

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We have had time to absorb and reflect on Adobe's announcements for Lightroom Classic and CC.

There are a number of well documented comments and concerns in this thread. I believe this forum and Victoria's support for Lightroom have the gravitas to merit a reply from Adobe.

On reading more about Lightroom CC I have concerns about the artificial intelligence (AI) being discussed and the development of Adobe Sensei. I would not want Adobe, or any other company, running some AI program on my images and using machine learning to tag and do other unknown things with my images. As such I am firmly in the disk and folders approach and I am keen to understand Adobe's plans for the future of Lightroom Classic.
I am less concerned about the AI. When you look at the examples, the AI really is about tagging stock photos. So if you are selling the images, it would be perfect.
But yeah, the fiasco did get me off my rear and start to re-evaluate staying with Adobe. So far I have learned there is no one product that can meet my current requirements. Have not done enough research to determine if I want to bolt together multiple software tools to meet my requirements.
In addition, I have penciled out the upgrade costs for multiple pieces of software over a period of five years. Which depending on software is either two or three cycles. So far the total cost is about the same as Adobe subscriptions.

Tim
 

PhilBurton

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In addition, I have penciled out the upgrade costs for multiple pieces of software over a period of five years. Which depending on software is either two or three cycles. So far the total cost is about the same as Adobe subscriptions.

Tim
No surprise. Whatever else Adobe did amateurishly, Adobe certainly did a "competitive analysis" of pricing. That is a basic when doing pricing.

Phil
 
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Ken

It is entirely possible that Sensei is really about tagging files just for our use. But without disclosures, the rumors and the "conspiracy theories" are running wild.

Phil
Hi Phil,

It may also be for our use, but then why can't we edit the tags? Especially if they are incorrect. Somebody was able to post the tags from an image, and IIRC, several were incorrect. Now perhaps AI works the odds and does not care if the tag is incorrect, but wouldn't it be better to have data that is more accurate?

--Ken
 

PhilBurton

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Hi Phil,

It may also be for our use, but then why can't we edit the tags? Especially if they are incorrect. Somebody was able to post the tags from an image, and IIRC, several were incorrect. Now perhaps AI works the odds and does not care if the tag is incorrect, but wouldn't it be better to have data that is more accurate?

--Ken
Totally agree. I can't understand the part about the user not being able to edit the tags? Of course, I will stay with the Classic version of LR.
 
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Hi Phil,

It may also be for our use, but then why can't we edit the tags?
Why would you expect it to be purely for your use? For every big player out there, the consumer is the product, you are not the customer. Tell me facebook, google, twitter, instagram, amazon (drive), microsoft are not skimming photos you upload and compiling massive databases and trying to figure out how to capitalize on them. Not that it's all about photos, but unless it's a service where you encrypt it before handing off data, I bet there isn't a single big player not skimming it for info. Sure... they promise "no personally identifiable data" and other anonymizing (am I a cynic for not believing them?).

I'm surprised you would think any differently; or for that matter believe Adobe if they said they don't (from a sales/marketing type -- I might believe it if they published it clearly in plain language in their T&C's -- let me know when that happens :) ).
 
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Why would you expect it to be purely for your use? For every big player out there, the consumer is the product, you are not the customer. Tell me facebook, google, twitter, instagram, amazon (drive), microsoft are not skimming photos you upload and compiling massive databases and trying to figure out how to capitalize on them. Not that it's all about photos, but unless it's a service where you encrypt it before handing off data, I bet there isn't a single big player not skimming it for info. Sure... they promise "no personally identifiable data" and other anonymizing (am I a cynic for not believing them?).

I'm surprised you would think any differently; or for that matter believe Adobe if they said they don't (from a sales/marketing type -- I might believe it if they published it clearly in plain language in their T&C's -- let me know when that happens :) ).
Linwood, usually the consumer is the product when the service is free. It also seems a somewhat different relationship when I am posting files for public consumption like my blog where I would expect a certain amount of exposure of my photos that would not be in my control. Then I would expect that a lot could happen to my images. It seems like Adobe is expanding into the social media business to a certain degree, and I find that a bit in conflict with the idea of them watching after my images in the cloud if I do not wish to share them, especially since I am paying them. I use both Box and Dropbox for cloud storage and I would be curious to know if the contents of my files are scanned upon upload for AI/marketing purposes.


--Ken
 
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Linwood, usually the consumer is the product when the service is free. It also seems a somewhat different relationship when I am posting files for public consumption like my blog where I would expect a certain amount of exposure of my photos that would not be in my control. Then I would expect that a lot could happen to my images. It seems like Adobe is expanding into the social media business to a certain degree, and I find that a bit in conflict with the idea of them watching after my images in the cloud if I do not wish to share them, especially since I am paying them. I use both Box and Dropbox for cloud storage and I would be curious to know if the contents of my files are scanned upon upload for AI/marketing purposes.
Clearly the consumer is the product when you are getting it free, but why would one assume because you are paying that they would not still use you as data points?

I just spent the last 10 minutes or so trying to find a clear and specific statement how Creative Cloud uses your photos without success. Not saying it's not there, but it couldn't be readily had. The general policy is here, and and it says for information on "certain apps and websites" to go here. Those don't include Lightroom, but refer you to Terms of Use and License Agreements. Terms of use sends you back to Privacy. License Agreement for Lightroom also sends you back to Privacy. There's no distinction I can see in Lightroom CC and Lightroom Classic.

It does say clearly: As discussed more in Section 3 below, you retain all rights and ownership you have in your content that you make available through the Services.

In that section though it says:

We require certain licenses from you to your content to operate and enable the Services. When you upload content to the Services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sub-licensable, and transferrable license to use, reproduce, publicly display, distribute, modify (so as to better showcase your content, for example), publicly perform, and translate the content as needed in response to user driven actions (such as when you choose to store privately or share your content with others). This license is only for the purpose of operating or improving the Services.​

The "improving the service" is an interesting extension. It is also this section which adds:

Our automated systems may analyze your content using techniques such as machine learning. This analysis might occur as the content is sent, received, or when it is stored. From this analysis, we are able to improve the Services.​

And in turn refers you here. That says they use:

The computer may analyze your content when you send, receive, or store files using our cloud services. We do not access the files stored locally on your computer. We use data in your files, activity logs, and direct feedback from you to train and improve our algorithms.​

The machine learning FAQ then sends you back to the Privacy policy above. It does say how you can opt out of Machine Learning.

But is Machine Learning the only issue -- there's also that out of "improving the service" which I see no clear way to opt out. Is collecting usage data, where and when you take pictures, what cameras you use... is that game for "imrproving the service"? Do you care?

And honestly, given how deep you have to dig to get to the opt out section of this... is it really effective? How many people will even THINK they might use it, and dig?

I just don't find it surprising that we are the product for Adobe as well. I think Microsoft is scanning all my email (they host it). I think Google knows and uses every search I write -- my WIFE frequently gets ads for what I am shopping for within minutes of me starting to shop.
 
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