Importing previously edited photos

[GretchenW]

Lightroom Version Number

LR classic 12.3

Operating System

1. Windows 11

When I import my images to LR, I convert them to DNG.
I thought the metadata settings were saved to that DNG file.
Recently I had a corrupted LR catalog, so I just started a new catalog and re-imported all my DNGs. However there were no editing details attached to any of these images and I had to start over from scratch.
I'm wondering if I have missed a setting that I should have checked or unchecked, to keep the editing data attached to the DNG. Or if I missed something I should have checked when importing the previously edited DNG files.
I am not using CR3 files, nor am I using the sidecar XMP. I am probably wrong but I was under the impression that DNG files did not need a sidecar XMP because the metadata is written in to the DNG. Maybe I am confusing metadata with editing info.
Please help me figure out how to solve this. Thank you!

 

[Johan Elzenga]

If you convert your image to DNG, then the edits are not automatically written into the metadata of the DNG file. That only happens when you export as DNG. DNG files do indeed not have an XMP sidecar file, the edits are written in the metadata header of the DNG file itself.

 

[GretchenW]

If you convert your image to DNG, then the edits are not automatically written into the metadata of the DNG file. That only happens when you export as DNG. DNG files do indeed not have an XMP sidecar file, the edits are written in the metadata header of the DNG file itself.

OK so I think I understand. So would I need to have a separate XMP sidecar file to contain the edits?

 

[GretchenW]

@Johan Elzenga I'm really confused because when I do a quick google search I found the following:

 

[Conrad Chavez]

I'm wondering if I have missed a setting that I should have checked or unchecked, to keep the editing data attached to the DNG.

Is the setting enabled that’s shown in the picture below? If it’s enabled, then instead of Lightroom Classic writing your image edits to the database as you work, it writes your edits to the DNG file instead.

If it’s disabled (as it is by default and in the picture), then as you work, image edits are written to the database as usual, not to the DNG file. If it’s been disabled for a while but you want to update many DNG files with their current edits, you can update them manually: Select one or more DNG files and then choose Metadata > Save Metadata to Files.

So if that option was disabled in the catalog that you were using, then the edits you made before were going to that catalog’s database, not to the DNG files, and that’s why they’re not in the DNG files when imported.

If you have a backup of the catalog from before it got corrupted, that would be a way to restore the edits for all of the DNG files. And unlike DNG metadata, the catalog also stores metadata such as edit history, virtual copies, collections, and many other types of metadata that aren’t saved in DNG, sometimes because they involve associations of multiple files.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

@Johan Elzenga I'm really confused because when I do a quick google search I found the following:
View attachment 21044

What is there to be confused about? This statement says that DNG are capable of writing edits and changes into one file. That is exactly what I also said. DNG files do not use XMP sidecar files. If edits are written to the file, then they are written into the main file.

The statement does not say that edits are always automatically written to the file. That is what I said too. What I said is that Lightroom does write the edits when you use Export as DNG, but does not do this when you use 'Convert to DNG'.

As Conrad explained, you need to enable the option to automatically write edits to XMP if you want the edits to be written into the DNG file. That may sound confusing, because when you think 'XMP' then you probably think 'XMP sidecar file', but XMP is the data format, not (only) a file type, and that format can be written into the DNG file.

 

[prbimages]

Is the setting enabled that’s shown in the picture below? If it’s enabled, then instead of Lightroom Classic writing your image edits to the database as you work, it writes your edits to the DNG file instead.

Not quite correct, I think your statement should read:

"If it's enabled, then in addition to Lightroom Classic writing your image edits to the database as you work, it will also write your edits to the DNG file."

At least that is how I have always understood it to work, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[GretchenW]

What is there to be confused about? This statement says that DNG are capable of writing edits and changes into one file. That is exactly what I also said. DNG files do not use XMP sidecar files. If edits are written to the file, then they are written into the main file.

The statement does not say that edits are always automatically written to the file. That is what I said too. What I said is that Lightroom does write the edits when you use Export as DNG, but does not do this when you use 'Convert to DNG'.

As Conrad explained, you need to enable the option to automatically write edits to XMP if you want the edits to be written into the DNG file. That may sound confusing, because when you think 'XMP' then you probably think 'XMP sidecar file', but XMP is the data format, not (only) a file type, and that format can be written into the DNG file.

I find your tone a bit condescending.
I am confused because I was under the impression that Lightroom would write the edits to my DNG file without me having to export the files as DNGs. I thought that having a DNG file would have the edits automatically saved to the DNG - much in the same way that when you use a proprietary file and use XMP sidecar files that the changes are automatically written.
Obviously I didn't know what I was doing so I needed some help understanding. I don't need any help FEELING STUPID because obviously, I came here for help so already I know that I'm not as smart as you.

 

[GretchenW]

Is the setting enabled that’s shown in the picture below? If it’s enabled, then instead of Lightroom Classic writing your image edits to the database as you work, it writes your edits to the DNG file instead.

If it’s disabled (as it is by default and in the picture), then as you work, image edits are written to the database as usual, not to the DNG file. If it’s been disabled for a while but you want to update many DNG files with their current edits, you can update them manually: Select one or more DNG files and then choose Metadata > Save Metadata to Files.

View attachment 21045

So if that option was disabled in the catalog that you were using, then the edits you made before were going to that catalog’s database, not to the DNG files, and that’s why they’re not in the DNG files when imported.

If you have a backup of the catalog from before it got corrupted, that would be a way to restore the edits for all of the DNG files. And unlike DNG metadata, the catalog also stores metadata such as edit history, virtual copies, collections, and many other types of metadata that aren’t saved in DNG, sometimes because they involve associations of multiple files.

unfortunately when I tried to restore my backup, that ended up getting corrupted too. It's just all a hot mess.
It's not the end of the world. I backup regularly so I only lost a day's work. Just frustrating. Obviously I still have all the original images, I'll just have to go back.
I keep my original images on a hard drive, and my catalog on a separate drive, so I thought when I reimported my DNG files from where they were stored, that all the edit data would be attached to them. But obviously it was not.
So .... back to this.... no I did not have that box checked because I thought I did not need it. I thought (erroneously, I'm finding) that a DNG is like a CR3+XMP. I figured, since I'm using DNG format, I don't need the XMP because it's written straight onto the DNG as I go along. I thought it would be there with the original DNG files.
If I check the box now, will I then have DNG files + XMP sidecar files?

 

[GretchenW]

Not quite correct, I think your statement should read:

"If it's enabled, then in addition to Lightroom Classic writing your image edits to the database as you work, it will also write your edits to the DNG file."

At least that is how I have always understood it to work, please correct me if I'm wrong.

this is what I'm trying to figure out.
I didn't ever have the "write to XMP files" checked because I thought the editing data was being written to the DNG.
Further, I thought, "I don't want the XMP files. I don't need them since I'm using DNG"
And clearly I didn't understand. But I'm glad I'm figuring this out now.

 

[PhilBurton]

I find your tone a bit condescending.
I am confused because I was under the impression that Lightroom would write the edits to my DNG file without me having to export the files as DNGs. I thought that having a DNG file would have the edits automatically saved to the DNG - much in the same way that when you use a proprietary file and use XMP sidecar files that the changes are automatically written.
Obviously I didn't know what I was doing so I needed some help understanding. I don't need any help FEELING STUPID because obviously, I came here for help so already I know that I'm not as smart as you.

@GrethchenW

I think you owe Johan a public apology. Johan is a tireless contributor to this forum. I don't know how much time a day he spends responding to messages but I'm sure it's non-trivial. He has certainly helped me many timnes. I have saved many of his messages in a Microsoft OneNote file for future reference.

 

[GretchenW]

@GrethchenW

I think you owe Johan a public apology. Johan is a tireless contributor to this forum. I don't know how much time a day he spends responding to messages but I'm sure it's non-trivial. He has certainly helped me many timnes. I have saved many of his messages in a Microsoft OneNote file for future reference.

I disagree. I came to the forum because I was confused and I was asked, "what is there to be confused about?" When someone explains an idea, and the listener/reader still doesn't understand, then the answer is not to tell them they are wrong for not understanding.
I'm a smart person. I've been using Lightroom for 12 years since LR2. This is what I would consider an advanced topic and from the other responses here, it's clear that I'm not the only one who was confused on this topic.
I didn't insult Johan. I actually said he is smarter than me.

I recognize that Johan is an expert and clearly knows what he's talking about.

 

[Califdan]

Trying to stay out of the politics here, but I would like to offer this.....

What is somewhat confusing when dealing with this subject is that XMP "DATA" is a different thing than XMP "SIDE CAR FILE". A lot became clearer to me when I realized this difference. So, when LrC mentions "XMP Data" they are talking about a block of information. But when talking about "XMP File" (or XMP Side Car File) they are talking about a physical file which contains the XMP Data block. In the case of DNG files, the XMP Data can be saved inside the DNG file and does not require a seperate XMP File.

So, whether XMP data is stored inside an image file such as DNG or in an XMP Side Car File - you still have to tell LrC to copy the XMP Data from the catalog to disk. This can be done, as shown earlier in this thread, by turning on the "automatically save XMP data" preference (notice this is "data", which may be either inside the file or an external XMP Side Car file), or by issueing a "Save Metadata to disk" command on individual images.

 

[Jim Wilde]

If you convert your image to DNG, then the edits are not automatically written into the metadata of the DNG file. That only happens when you export as DNG. DNG files do indeed not have an XMP sidecar file, the edits are written in the metadata header of the DNG file itself.

Just for clarification. when converting a file to DNG inside Lightroom, all existing metadata (including edits) is automatically embedded into the XMP data block of the new DNG file, i.e. it isn't necessary to export as DNG or save metadata to file. But any subsequent changes after conversion would only be embedded using the automatic or manual save methods described in the thread. The issue in this particular case is that the conversion to DNG was done during import, so there would be no new metadata or edits available to embed at that initial conversion time.

 

[Paul McFarlane]

Dear All

A gentle reminder that we're all here to help in understanding and solving questions and issues. No one is trying to appear smarter or trying to make others feel their questions are not relevant; sometimes in type, things can come over in ways unintended, but please be assured all are here to help.

Sometimes Lightroom can appear confusing; our aim is to simplify and clarify such confusion.

It is the ambition of Victoria, myself and the valued Gurus on here to maintain a helpful, friendly atmosphere. The first Forum rule states "We have a lovely atmosphere here, and we appreciate your help in keeping it that way."

Thank you all for helping us keep this.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

I find your tone a bit condescending.

That was not my intention and I apologize if I insulted you. The thing was that I explained the situation, and then you answered by saying that you were now confused because of something you read elsewhere and quoted. The quoted text only confirmed what I said however, so I was a bit surprised that this had caused confusion. I hope things have become clearer in the meantime with all the other replies.

 

[Conrad Chavez]

Not quite correct, I think your statement should read:
"If it's enabled, then in addition to Lightroom Classic writing your image edits to the database as you work, it will also write your edits to the DNG file."
At least that is how I have always understood it to work, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry, took me a while to get back to this. Yes, I think you’re correct here. According to page 412 in Victoria's Lightroom Classic Missing FAQ book:

Automatically write changes into XMP saves the metadata with the files as well as in the catalog.

 

[Califdan]

I forgot to add one other thing to my comment In additon to metadta, the image edits which are save in XMP Data in the image file or in a seperate XMP Side car file is the state of the image at the time the XMP Data was saved - Not all the steps that got it to that state. In other words it is the current slider postions and masks and not all the steps in the History Panel.

 

[Denis de Gannes]

Just some of my thoughts.
It’s Lightroom Classic default operating procedure for all your metadata, edits and other functions you do is written and stored in the Catalog file and other support data files. This is it‘s primary function. There is no option to turn this off. While you work in LrC it is reading and writing to the Catalog file.
There is an option to also write metadata and edits to the file this can be done automatically or manually. In the case of raw images the info is stored in a xmp sidecar file and for DNG, Tiff, Jpeg the info is stored in the file header. There are a number of things that are not written to the file notably Collections, Virtual copies, Publish services and some other. The only sure way to recover all of your work is from the Catalog and other data files. This is not a primary function.
Just my thoughts.