HDR ?

[rebop]

Operating System

1. macOS 15 Sequoia

I don't know if there is interest in discussing this, but I watched two (so far) classes at the Lightroom Summit on HDR and although it taught me a lot, I have left with as least as many questions as I had before hand. I understand it works on expanding detail in the lighter portions of raw images and I like the results I saw. But, for example:

1. Most people like my edits and I have never done HDR editing
2.My monitor is capable of HDR, but I do not know if it is enabled or not. I have an ASUS set to use Display P3 and a color temp, etc to mimic my Macbook and it does. But while I am told the Macbook is HDR, the HDR profile on the Monitor is not engaged. But they look soooo close to each other.
3. If I follow all their suggestions and a user or browser is NOT HDR enabled, will the end viewer see a better image if I edit as I have in SDR or if edietd as HDR with a gain map for the SDR side of that image?

So those are some of my yet to be answered questions to see if there is a place for HDR in my workflow, or perhaps not today but near future.

Throwing this out there for discussion. Greg Benz has some tools and tutorials on this: https://gregbenzphotography.com/hdr/

 

[Jim Wilde]

1. Most people like my edits and I have never done HDR editing
2.My monitor is capable of HDR, but I do not know if it is enabled or not. I have an ASUS set to use Display P3 and a color temp, etc to mimic my Macbook and it does. But while I am told the Macbook is HDR, the HDR profile on the Monitor is not engaged. But they look soooo close to each other.
3. If I follow all their suggestions and a user or browser is NOT HDR enabled, will the end viewer see a better image if I edit as I have in SDR or if edietd as HDR with a gain map for the SDR side of that image?

So those are some of my yet to be answered questions to see if there is a place for HDR in my workflow, or perhaps not today but near future.

Throwing this out there for discussion. Greg Benz has some tools and tutorials on this: https://gregbenzphotography.com/hdr/

1. If you process your images using the HDR option, and your "most people" are able to view the results on an HRD-capable monitor then they will love your images even more. Have you tried it yet, using the MBP display?
2. If the images look similar on the MBP retina screen and the external monitor, then either both screens are HDR-capable or you haven't processed using the HDR option. There should be a noticeable difference for HDR-processed images between the MBP screen and a non-HDR external monitor.
3. That's the issue of course. Personally I love viewing my images in HDR on my MBP screen, but if I think I may want to share an image I'll take the extra time to use the sliders in the SDR preview box so that it will look good on a non-HDR monitor.

 

[rebop]

• I have never used HDR to date in LRc. I also always use the external monitor to edit images, Jim.
• Both screens say HDR capable. Whether that is implemented on either is a very good question. Settings are extremely confusing.
• MBP says enabled by default but also alludes to only for HDR video. Asus says to use Asus Display P3 and M-Model on the monitor to mimic exact same diaplay MBP and ASUS, but then totally different settings to enable HDR on the ASUS which I do not want to do as it is as perfect now as I could hope for. Looks like an original Studio Display.

If I could figure this out, I could test better.
And Greg Benz tests show that no browser I have (Firefox, Safari, Edge) is HDR capable.

So this is why I started the topic. Maybe we are a bit away from using HDR in Lightroom and getting good results for any viewer.

 

[Gnits]

A quick google search revealed the following.

HDR Displays: All iPhones with OLED displays can display HDR content. This includes all models from the iPhone X, iPhone XS, and iPhone 11 Pro/Pro Max, as well as all models in the iPhone 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 lineup.

I assume similar for ipads and probably increasingly on laptops. So .. the achilles heel for many may be the relatively expensive AdobeRGB capable main editing screen on your own desk, if bought even in the recent past.

For those who are members of camera clubs or who display in commercial environments.. the humble screen projector is often the last device considered for upgrade.

I expect there is a wild range of HDR capabilities with new TVs but most folk will live with their existing old spec tv for a while yet.

But for some.. HDR will be an opportunity .. where high quality HDR capable displays will help promote expensive products from cars and yachts to jewellery and cosmetics.

 

[Jim Wilde]

• Maybe we are a bit away from using HDR in Lightroom and getting good results for any viewer.

Personally, I see no reason to delay using HDR in Lightroom. My MBP, 2 x iPads and my iPhone all have HDR-capable displays, so it makes sense for me to embrace HDR in my workflow (which I have done). I also use the Chrome browser, which is also HDR-capable, and even Apple's Preview will now support it as well.

In terms of the wider community that I might share images with, those with no HDR display should still see a reasonable quality SDR image, those with an HDR display will get to see the images as I now do. No reason to wait, IMO.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

There is one reason to wait (or simply never use it): if you mainly edit for print. My wife makes printed photo books of all our travels. For her HDR would be useless as long as photo books don't come with a 'glow in the dark paper' option.

 

[Gnits]

But the AdobeRGB profiled images used to print the books might display faithful to the printed image .... on hdr displays..

 

[clee01l]

And Greg Benz tests show that no browser I have (Firefox, Safari, Edge) is HDR capable.

Here is how the top browsers stack up for HDR playback:

• Google Chrome: Excellent HDR support for both streaming video and HDR photos. It supports Ultra HDR formats seamlessly on both Windows and macOS. [1, 2, 3]
• Microsoft Edge: One of the best options for high-quality streaming (supports up to 8K HDR). Because it shares the Chromium engine, it handles HDR videos and gain map photos just like Chrome. [1, 2]
• Apple Safari: Fully supports HDR video, HDR photos, and modern formats like AVIF, HEIF, and JXL on macOS, iOS, and iPadOS. [1, 2]
• Brave: Supports HDR, though you may need to enable the HDR gain map flag manually (brave://flags/#gainmap-hdr-images). [1]
• Mozilla Firefox: Lacks reliable HDR support on Windows (it only supports HDR and wide color gamut on macOS).

 

[Johan Elzenga]

But the AdobeRGB profiled images used to print the books might display faithful to the printed image .... on hdr displays..

AdobeRGB profiled photos display faithful to the printed image on an AdobeRGB capable display. That has nothing to do with HDR.
Most consumer photo books are printed from sRGB images, by the way.

 

[Gnits]

That makes sense.. I was failing to reconcile HDR and AdobeRGB in my own head… I suspect I misread some reference to AdobeRGB and HDR.

 

[Conrad Chavez]

But the AdobeRGB profiled images used to print the books might display faithful to the printed image .... on hdr displays..

Gamut is about color and HDR is about dynamic range (two different properties), so what Adobe RGB would do is potentially show a wider color range on wide gamut displays/TVs, which don’t have to be HDR, just wide gamut color.

I like making high-quality prints, but I’m experimenting with HDR, both with multiple exposure merges and with the HDR-native images coming out of the Adobe Project Indigo app. What’s nice about the HDR implementation in Lightroom Classic is that print previewing seems to be integrated.

You can start with an image in HDR editing mode and edit for HDR displays. Then, for the print, what I just found is if an image is in HDR edit mode and you enable Soft Proofing, that automatically forces SDR Rendition Settings to enable, and as you might expect, those only adjust the print (which can only be SDR) without affecting the HDR rendition. So you can optimize settings for both HDR and print versions in the same instance of the image in the catalog. I might not have thought of that before, but now it seems obvious that Adobe would choose to integrate the print version with the SDR pipeline and send prints down that road using SDR Rendition Settings, which you can adjust and preview.

If you need to make print-related adjustments in options that aren’t in SDR Rendition Settings, you can of course do what’s always been possible: Create a print-specific proof copy (soft-proof virtual copy), disable HDR edit mode, and make the print-specific changes in that proof copy.

The sample image used below is not a final edit, just a quick test to see how it works to print HDR edit mode images in Lightroom Classic.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

If you use images for display and print, then indeed this is a good option. But if your goal is first and foremost print (like in case of my wife), then using HDR will only make your prints a bit disappointing. I fully understand why she has zero interest in HDR.

 

[rebop]

Once again not notified of new posts Will read through this this afternoon and respond. Sorry...

 

[rebop]

Here is how the top browsers stack up for HDR playback:

• Google Chrome: Excellent HDR support for both streaming video and HDR photos. It supports Ultra HDR formats seamlessly on both Windows and macOS. [1, 2, 3]
• Microsoft Edge: One of the best options for high-quality streaming (supports up to 8K HDR). Because it shares the Chromium engine, it handles HDR videos and gain map photos just like Chrome. [1, 2]
• Apple Safari: Fully supports HDR video, HDR photos, and modern formats like AVIF, HEIF, and JXL on macOS, iOS, and iPadOS. [1, 2]
• Brave: Supports HDR, though you may need to enable the HDR gain map flag manually (brave://flags/#gainmap-hdr-images). [1]
• Mozilla Firefox: Lacks reliable HDR support on Windows (it only supports HDR and wide color gamut on macOS).

Are you sure Firefox is HDR on Mac? And if so, starting at what version as I use FF ESR and only update every 18 months or so. And agaiun, the HDR enabled tests at Greg Benz show that NO browser I have on Mac supports HDR including Safari! And no place I read says the MBP does HDR for photos, they only mention video.

 

[rebop]

Gamut is about color and HDR is about dynamic range (two different properties), so what Adobe RGB would do is potentially show a wider color range on wide gamut displays/TVs, which don’t have to be HDR, just wide gamut color.

I like making high-quality prints, but I’m experimenting with HDR, both with multiple exposure merges and with the HDR-native images coming out of the Adobe Project Indigo app. What’s nice about the HDR implementation in Lightroom Classic is that print previewing seems to be integrated.

You can start with an image in HDR editing mode and edit for HDR displays. Then, for the print, what I just found is if an image is in HDR edit mode and you enable Soft Proofing, that automatically forces SDR Rendition Settings to enable, and as you might expect, those only adjust the print (which can only be SDR) without affecting the HDR rendition. So you can optimize settings for both HDR and print versions in the same instance of the image in the catalog. I might not have thought of that before, but now it seems obvious that Adobe would choose to integrate the print version with the SDR pipeline and send prints down that road using SDR Rendition Settings, which you can adjust and preview.

If you need to make print-related adjustments in options that aren’t in SDR Rendition Settings, you can of course do what’s always been possible: Create a print-specific proof copy (soft-proof virtual copy), disable HDR edit mode, and make the print-specific changes in that proof copy.

The sample image used below is not a final edit, just a quick test to see how it works to print HDR edit mode images in Lightroom Classic.

View attachment 29253

That's a great post. Thanks for that.

 

[rebop]

OK, caught up.

So it seems I have several issues to discover. Let me try to simplify as I think I have an understanding of why I would want to use HDR and how using the SDR settings will allow my images to be universally viewable. Though for what I see in videos, an edited non HDR image might display better in SDR environments a bit better than the SDR edited from an HDR. Seems small differences, but differences none-the-less.

So lets start here. I have not confirmed my Macbook Pro M4 can display LRc HDR images as intended. How can I test that to be sure? Once I have that as expected, I can address my questions on the external ASUS PA27JCV 5K monitor.

MBP is set to a resolution I prefer for the 14" screen size and Display P3. What test should I run in any app?

 

[clee01l]

Are you sure Firefox is HDR on Mac? And if so, starting at what version as I use FF ESR and only update every 18 months or so. And agaiun, the HDR enabled tests at Greg Benz show that NO browser I have on Mac supports HDR including Safari! And no place I read says the MBP does HDR for photos, they only mention video.

What make you think Gerg Benz article is up to date? I just posted the question to Google and that was the response I got back. And why would Apple, that only puts HDR displays in their portable devices and sell the preeminent XDR display, release a browser that did not support HDR images?

 

[rebop]

OK, just tried the Greg Benz tests in Safari on Macbook M4 Pro with Sequoia latest. It does not pass the test, HOWEVER, tried the same in Safari on my iPhone and it passes just fine.

So this is the first issue to solve. I emailed Greg.

 

[rebop]

What make you think Gerg Benz article is up to date? I just posted the question to Google and that was the response I got back. And why would Apple, that only puts HDR displays in their portable devices and sell the preeminent XDR display, release a browser that did not support HDR images?

His Lightroom Summit presentation this week makes me think it is up to date. Why would you think not? And why would the MB Pro not pass while the iPhone does?

 

[rebop]

OK, interesting. Just changed the Preset on the MBP from Display P3 600 nits to XDR Display P3 1000 nits and Safari is showing HDR capable. FF is not, but at least Safari is.

Beautiful day to get out so I will pause and do just that. Then see if I get can get my external display to agree.

 

[rebop]

Arggh. Changing this, then setting HDR on in Mac settings has me now stuck on 30HZ refresh no matter what I do. Frustrating. I know both work now, but 30HZ is unacceptable. Trying to undo what I did and not getting very far.

 

[rebop]

So, to get HDR on the ASUS requires changing settings. And once I did that I can no longer get back to 60hZ refresh rate. Everything else is set as it was before testing with the exception that I have the Macbook set to Display P3 1000 nits to enable HDR on the laptop display.

 

[clee01l]

So, to get HDR on the ASUS requires changing settings. And once I did that I can no longer get back to 60hZ refresh rate. Everything else is set as it was before testing with the exception that I have the Macbook set to Display P3 1000 nits to enable HDR on the laptop display.

Which ASUS do you have? I Have PA32UCG & PA32UCR. Both are always HDR and 60hz.

 

[rebop]

Claude actually found that in enabling HDR the Display Port dropped from 1.4 to 1.2 linting refresh to 30hZ. I have it back now!! Asus PA27JCV.

I have it set to the NEW M Model to match the Macbook display, so your setup and mine are very different Clee. I ise the Asus Display Display P3 profile to enable this in the Widget settings and firmware MM103 enabled this terrific feature.

Claude says:

The DisplayPort Stream setting is listed under the System tab in the OSD.

On the monitor's OSD:

1. Press any button to wake the OSD, then use the 5-way joystick to enter the main menu
2. Navigate to the System tab (it's one of the 8 main tabs — typically looks like a gear icon)
3. Scroll down to DisplayPort Stream
4. The options are DP 1.2, DP 1.4, or DP 1.4 + USB 3.2 Manuals+

Important: Even though you're connected via USB-C, the monitor is running DisplayPort Alt Mode over that USB-C cable — so this setting absolutely applies and controls the DP version being negotiated. If it got bumped to DP 1.2 when you were toggling HDR, that's almost certainly your culprit, as DP 1.2 doesn't have the bandwidth for 5K@60Hz.

Make sure it's set to DP 1.4 or DP 1.4 + USB 3.2.

Also — one other thing to confirm while you're in the OSD: make sure HDR is fully off in the monitor's color preset menu (not just in macOS). If the monitor still has an HDR preset active on its side, that alone can constrain the available bandwidth for refresh rate.

Yet another frustrating learning experience.

 

[rebop]

And changing settings also changed me from mirror to extend on the monitor. Final result:

Took enabling XDR P3 1600 nits for HDR on the Macbook, then the Enable HDR on the external but that made all sorts of issues. I now know how to revert the changes, but likely will keep HDR for the Macbook screen only.