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Export exporting xmp or dng?

stacey-njnolans

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Is there any difference if I am sending an editor my original files with xmps or if I convert to dng first and bake it in? Any disadvantages to making into dngs?
 

bobsomrak

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If you send the file as DNG with the XMP data in the DNG the editor will have to send the large DNG back to you. If you send a RAW and associated XMP file then the editor will just have to send the small XMP back to you. Otherwise, there should not be a difference. BTW, the edits are not BAKED IN in a DNG file in the same manner they are "baked in" a TIFF or JPG. The DNG is still fully editable.
 
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Consider also what might be a better option- that is to [Export as a Catalog] with Smart Previews for the Editor. When this temporary Catalog (ie. the Catalog ONLY!) is returned, you [Import from another Catalog], and 'everything' is included.
A quote from this link: "using Lightroom Classic and sending a catalog with smart previews is the best option..."
CLIENT EDITING Prepping Files to Send
And you may find interesting comments in this link-
CLIENT EDITING REMOTE
 
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If you send the file as DNG with the XMP data in the DNG the editor will have to send the large DNG back to you. If you send a RAW and associated XMP file then the editor will just have to send the small XMP back to you. Otherwise, there should not be a difference. BTW, the edits are not BAKED IN in a DNG file in the same manner they are "baked in" a TIFF or JPG. The DNG is still fully editable.

The data block in a DNG can be a RAW data with Lightroom adjustments contained in the XML block. Moore likely is the file has been processed, the data block will be in RGB pixel form like a TIFF and contain processed (edited) RGB pixels.
If you convert the original RAW file to DNG, Lightroom will keep the data bloc as original RAW data. If you export as DNG, the data block will be processed RGB data


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If you export as DNG, the data block will be processed RGB data
Not if the original is a Raw file, i.e. exporting a Raw file as DNG retains the Raw data just as when converting the Raw file to DNG.
 
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Not if the original is a Raw file, i.e. exporting a Raw file as DNG retains the Raw data just as when converting the Raw file to DNG.

If I edit a RAW file in LrC, make many adjustments and choose to Export as a DNG I get an Edited image not a RAW. This is the same as Exporting as a TIFF. The only way that’s I know to get a RAW image on export is to export as original.


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If I edit a RAW file in LrC, make many adjustments and choose to Export as a DNG I get an Edited image not a RAW. This is the same as Exporting as a TIFF. The only way that’s I know to get a RAW image on export is to export as original.
Try exporting an edited raw file as DNG, choosing "Add to the Catalog". Then examine the resulting DNG....in Develop you should see the same Raw profile and slider positions as the original Raw. Check in the Library Metadata panel, DNG preset, and you should see that "Mosaic Data" is recorded as "Yes".

The same holds true in Lightroom Mobile, exporting a Raw file as DNG is the only way to get Raw data with embedded XMP (as the Export as Original function does NOT include an XMP sidecar file)
 
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Try exporting an edited raw file as DNG
I did that and see that there is an export option to "Embed original RAW File". From this I can only conclude that without that option checked, the data block viewed by Lightroom is RGB and that you need to add a RAW data block alongside the RGB data block to preserve the RAW data.
 
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Is there any difference if I am sending an editor my original files with xmps or if I convert to dng first and bake it in?
I know I’m late to this thread but what will your external editor accept? Also, since it’s one way, why not just use TIFF? If the external editor has a LrC plugin, you can get the results back allowing you to manage all interactions of your image in LrC
 
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I did that and see that there is an export option to "Embed original RAW File".
I have that option unchecked. Did you leave it unchecked and then proceeded with the export? With what result?

Here are a few screenshots of the process on my Mac system, starting with the original raw file in Develop:

Snap 1.png

Now my Export as DNG Settings:

Export_One_File.png

Here's the resulting DNG file in Develop. Note the Profile and the non-zero slider settings, then compare them with the original Raw.

snap3.png

And here's the Metadata Panel for the DNG file:

snip4.png

I hope we can agree that the output file is definitely raw data in the DNG wrapper, and of course I would be very interested in knowing if you are seeing a different result.
 
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In LrC, I see the same results as you. But LrC is showing you an RGB file. At the moment I do not have the tools to open the DNG file to see if there is RAW data in the unchecked DNG export. In addition to the EXIF header blocks, there will be at least one JPEG thumbnail, The primary data bloc is either RGB or RAW photo site data. My contention is that the DNG will create by default a full-size RGB rendered data block and only create an Embedded RAW file data block in addition to the RGB Rendered block .
If I open the DNG in any other photo app, I see (briefly) the rendered thumbnail and then the RGB file without the Lightroom edits applied. I still am unable to open the DNG file and see the components inside.
 
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My last post on the subject.....try opening the exported DNG directly into Photoshop. If it's RGB data as you maintain, it will open into PS but if it's Raw data it will first be opened into Camera Raw (as it does on my system).
 
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Clee, you are wrong, Jim is correct. Export as DNG will create a raw DNG if the original file is a raw file, not an RGB DNG. Embedding the original raw file has nothing to do with it. That is only an option that Adobe added so people can go back from DNG to proprietary raw if they would even want to do that.
 

stacey-njnolans

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Consider also what might be a better option- that is to [Export as a Catalog] with Smart Previews for the Editor. When this temporary Catalog (ie. the Catalog ONLY!) is returned, you [Import from another Catalog], and 'everything' is included.
A quote from this link: "using Lightroom Classic and sending a catalog with smart previews is the best option..."
CLIENT EDITING Prepping Files to Send
And you may find interesting comments in this link-
CLIENT EDITING REMOTE
Thank you! I will check out that information.
 

stacey-njnolans

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I have that option unchecked. Did you leave it unchecked and then proceeded with the export? With what result?

Here are a few screenshots of the process on my Mac system, starting with the original raw file in Develop:

View attachment 18865

Now my Export as DNG Settings:

View attachment 18866

Here's the resulting DNG file in Develop. Note the Profile and the non-zero slider settings, then compare them with the original Raw.

View attachment 18867

And here's the Metadata Panel for the DNG file:

View attachment 18868

I hope we can agree that the output file is definitely raw data in the DNG wrapper, and of course I would be very interested in knowing if you are seeing a different result.
Thank you for all the information! This exchange was very informative. So what really is the difference between a raw file and a dng then since all the editing info becomes inserted into the dng just like if there was a sidecar xmp or embedded in a tiff or pds? My purpose started as trying to learn about the options for sending a photo that already has my edits to an editor or for us to go back and forth with edits in the most efficient way. I have been using tiffs or psds. But wonder what is lost or gained between the different options of raw with sidecar, tiff, dng, psd? I would like to establish a routine and sometimes the editor ask me what I want to do and I don't feel educated about all this. Thank you!
 

stacey-njnolans

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I have that option unchecked. Did you leave it unchecked and then proceeded with the export? With what result?

Here are a few screenshots of the process on my Mac system, starting with the original raw file in Develop:

View attachment 18865

Now my Export as DNG Settings:

View attachment 18866

Here's the resulting DNG file in Develop. Note the Profile and the non-zero slider settings, then compare them with the original Raw.

View attachment 18867

And here's the Metadata Panel for the DNG file:

View attachment 18868

I hope we can agree that the output file is definitely raw data in the DNG wrapper, and of course I would be very interested in knowing if you are seeing a different result.
Also, included as an option beside the above formats is using a new catalog to exchange photo edits, but when its only a handful of photos is that worth doing? And much of the edits are done in LR AND PS. Thanks again!
 
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Depending on how active your editor is in the actual editing process, you could use a service like frame.io (now owned by Adobe) to share image files and your editor can mark up the image and leave you comments as well. This would give you a running dialog to refer to, but you would need to do all the editing. Your editor would only be able to mark up the image, but they could also download it it desired. different work flow, but used in the film industry for the same purpose as you are trying to accomplish. They have a generous free plan if you are interested.

Good luck,

--Ken
 
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So what really is the difference between a raw file and a dng then since all the editing info becomes inserted into the dng just like if there was a sidecar xmp or embedded in a tiff or pds?
A DNG is a file container, based upon the TIFF/EP6 standard. All image files types contain one or more metadata blocks (EXIF, IPTC, XML, etc.). All Image file types contain one or more data block (Thumbnails are a type of data block). TIFFs, JPEGs, and similar image file types only contain RGB data (pixels) in their data blocks. Proprietary RAW file types (NEF, CR2, etc.) contains one data block that is not RGB image pixels, it is a collection of photosite values recorded by the camera. Proprietary RAW file types will also contain at least one data block of in camera processed JPEG pixels. This may or may not be full size. There will also be a JPEG thumbnail.

DNGs are extensible in that the metadata can describe what data is contained in the Datablocks that follow. If you create a Panorama or HDR in Lightroom, the output file is a DNG, but the data is processed RGB pixels not RAW photosite data. These DNGs will also contain Thumbnails of defined sizes as well as a full-size RGB data block. The Metadata will be EXIF, ITPC and maybe XML if you specified the XML be written to the output file.

Where Jim and I disagree (and he is probably right since I’ve never won a Lightroom disagreement with him) is whether the Export DNG contains a RAW data block along with an XML block that contains the process parameters. A Panorama DNG created by Lightroom will not contain a RAW data block. But will contain a fully processed RGB pixel data block Jim Says that it does contain a RAW data block without explicitly setting that parameter in the export dialog. Since the DNG filetype is very flexible, it could contain a fully processed RGB data block, JPEG thumbnails of one or more sizes, and a data block containing unprocessed photosite values. An app such as Photoshop could read the RAW photosite data convert to RGB and apply any develop settings found in the XML.
 
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Is there any difference if I am sending an editor my original files with xmps or if I convert to dng first and bake it in? Any disadvantages to making into dngs?
Don't do it. Send the raw file with a sidecar. There have been whole articles about this. I don't send to an editor, but guys were saying that if more than one editor is tossing it around and editing that its better with a sidecar. Anyway, I'm starting not to like DNG. Ive been shooting it for a few months now and miss my proprietary Fuji, Canon and Nikon raws with sidecars. Hey Clete - that was a really good primer you wrote. If you have time, school me on my DNG questions. I'm having some DNG challenges with my Sicily shots. Weird behavior.
 
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