do you use a culling software before importing to Lightroom classic?

[studio_2]

Lightroom Version Number

LR Classic

Operating System

1. macOS 12 Monterey

hi guys
still finding out the best way to fine tune my workflow.
I need to determine if to invest in a software like Photo Mechanic - for what I can gather LR is more than capable of culling large number of photos, but Photo Mechanic seem to generate quicker previews from RAW files...

how do you guys manage this part of the workflow? do you import all raw photos and then cull inside LR? I would think you want to then remove all culled photos from the catalogue?Ω
I am an (aspiring) unit still photographer, and I come home from set with on average 1000 photos to go through.

thanks!

 

[clee01l]

My culling software and my image management software is Lightroom Classic.

My workflow is as follows:
1. Insert Camera Card.
2. Open the import dialog and begin the import
3. Before the Import has completed, navigate to the Library module and begin reviewing the current import that shows up in the “Previous Import” Special Collection.
4. Any images that I do not want to keep, mark with a Reject Flag (X).
5. Edit the remaining images as normal and any unsatisfactory edits, reject (X).
6. Select images for keeping in a Publish Service and Publish.
7. Reject (X) any images that will not get Published unless I have a good reason for keeping.
8. When I have completed these 8 steps, remove the Rejected (X) images for the catalog and Disk.

Lightroom is the only DAM tool you will ever need for managing your images.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[studio_2]

My culling software and my image management software is Lightroom Classic.

My workflow is as follows:
1. Insert Camera Card.
2. Open the import dialog and begin the import
3. Before the Import has completed, navigate to the Library module and begin reviewing the current import that shows up in the “Previous Import” Special Collection.
4. Any images that I do not want to keep, mark with a Reject Flag (X).
5. Edit the remaining images as normal and any unsatisfactory edits, reject (X).
6. Select images for keeping in a Publish Service and Publish.
7. Reject (X) any images that will not get Published unless I have a good reason for keeping.
8. When I have completed these 8 steps, remove the Rejected (X) images for the catalog and Disk.

Lightroom is the only DAM tool you will ever need for managing your images.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

thanks - very interesting and detailed. I guess the reason why some software like photo mechanic exists is that they give a quicker preview to raw files. but I haven't tried those yet. your workflow is very similar to my current one

 

[Jimmsp]

I do not use a pre-culling software.
I only use Lightroom Classic
I find that the easy ones to cull - such as badly out of focus or missing the desired subject (eg, when I am shooting birds in flight or macros of insects in motion) - have no benefit of preculling. I quickly look at them in LR and assign the X for later delete.

The hard ones to cull generally take more time for me to sort through and I need the detailed view that LR provides me. I tend to "work the scene" so I am evaluating composition and subject detail as I am looking through them and assigning ratings. I use a X - 0 star -1 star - 2 star rating system, and I save no time with something like Photo Mechanic. It actually costs me a bit more time, as with today's cameras I generally get very few technically bad shots that are easy to cull out. Poor composition is all on me.

 

[clee01l]

thanks - very interesting and detailed. I guess the reason why some software like photo mechanic exists is that they give a quicker preview to raw files. but I haven't tried those yet. your workflow is very similar to my current one

I don’t know if the preview is any quicker than Lightroom’s In either case you are looking at the JPEG thumbnails created in the camera and written into the file header of the RAW file. In my import dialog, I greate minimal previews as Lightroom will generate full-size previews on the image only if I request them. Since my images are kept locally, I do not create a Smart Preview folder during import either.
The problem that I have with using two different DAM apps is that Appd Like PhotoMechanic Requires you to mount the camera card and read the files IMO once the camera card is mounted and the files are read, you could just as easily be importing into Lightroom while examining the ones already imported.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jim Wilde]

I'm also a Lightroom-only importer, but in my case I use the "Embedded & Sidecar" preview option when importing, which is very quick as it involves no preview building at all. Instead the embedded SOOC Jpeg preview is "fetched" and stored and is available immediately. Depending on the camera, the preview can be full resolution in which case full 1:1 zoom is available for focus-checking when culling. I use Canon cameras, which DO have the full res embedded preview, so building previews on import is now a thing of the past for me. I can't imagine a quicker way to import.

 

[johnbeardy]

PhotoMechanic works best if you're reviewing large numbers of photos and need to output them quickly with metadata but with no adjustments. Imagine a press photographer as a typical user.

1000 a day might put you in that volume category, but your deadlines might not be so tight and you might have more need and more flexibility to adjust images before output.

LR's import dialog can be used for quick culling, X being the shortcut to deselect from import, but doing it this way becomes a bottleneck that prevents you doing anything else. So importing with the Embeded + Sidecar option gets the photos into LR and lets you browse through quickly, while letting you make adjustments. After all, sometimes one needs to adjust images to choose between alternatives or decide if they're worth keeping - deliberately underexposed shots might have important shadow detail that might be lifted.

 

[studio_2]

PhotoMechanic works best if you're reviewing large numbers of photos and need to output them quickly with metadata but with no adjustments. Imagine a press photographer as a typical user.

1000 a day might put you in that volume category, but your deadlines might not be so tight and you might have more need and more flexibility to adjust images before output.

LR's import dialog can be used for quick culling, X being the shortcut to deselect from import, but doing it this way becomes a bottleneck that prevents you doing anything else. So importing with the Embeded + Sidecar option gets the photos into LR and lets you browse through quickly, while letting you make adjustments. After all, sometimes one needs to adjust images to choose between alternatives or decide if they're worth keeping - deliberately underexposed shots might have important shadow detail that might be lifted.

thanks - very interesting. I always create smart previews. so embed+sidecar is the quickest option to cull efficiently? I am still a bit confused by the many preview types...

 

[studio_2]

I'm also a Lightroom-only importer, but in my case I use the "Embedded & Sidecar" preview option when importing, which is very quick as it involves no preview building at all. Instead the embedded SOOC Jpeg preview is "fetched" and stored and is available immediately. Depending on the camera, the preview can be full resolution in which case full 1:1 zoom is available for focus-checking when culling. I use Canon cameras, which DO have the full res embedded preview, so building previews on import is now a thing of the past for me. I can't imagine a quicker way to import.

I use a Sony A7IV and need to check what type of resolution the Embedded & Sidecar option gives me, but what you write makes perfect sense

 

[Hal P Anderson]

I always create smart previews. so embed+sidecar is the quickest option to cull efficiently? I am still a bit confused by the many preview types...

Smart previews don't have any bearing on the question. They aren't (in spite of the name) previews at all. They're proxies for your images that you can edit even though the originals are off-line.

 

[johnbeardy]

Essentially PM's speed advantage was because it read the embedded preview and didn't decode the raw data. For years, LR didn't read them. That changed once LR finally introduced the Embedded & Sidecar option, and it means that while a big import completes you can get on making keep/trash decisions at 1:1 res on those that are already imported. As PM shows, most of those decisions don't require decoding the raw data.

 

[PhilBurton]

I don’t know if the preview is any quicker than Lightroom’s In either case you are looking at the JPEG thumbnails created in the camera and written into the file header of the RAW file. In my import dialog, I greate minimal previews as Lightroom will generate full-size previews on the image only if I request them. Since my images are kept locally, I do not create a Smart Preview folder during import either.
The problem that I have with using two different DAM apps is that Appd Like PhotoMechanic Requires you to mount the camera card and read the files IMO once the camera card is mounted and the files are read, you could just as easily be importing into Lightroom while examining the ones already imported.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Agree with Clee here. Here is one counter example, but it is the eception to the rule. I have Fast RAW Viewer, but I rarely use it. For a spray-and-pray subject like a baseball game, I photograph the scoreboard for the name of each batter. Then I might do 5 or 9 frames a second for a bunch of pitches. For many of the batter I delete the entire sequence. For a few batters I might keep 2-3-4 shots. All the rest should be deleted. Fast RAW Viewer helps for this situation.

However I dony't have season tickets to the SF Giants games and I don't go to Oakland A's games. I do a lot of other photography where frankly FRV only creates extra steps and delay for me with minimal benefit, so it's faster and easier to do all my initial culling in LrC.

 

[Gnits]

With a typical volume of 1000 photos per session and not having the pressure of posting the keepers to a news feed at half time / full time.. I think you would be best optimising your Lr workflow. Some good suggestions already re handling of previews. Avoid moving from Library Mode to Develop Mode and back as the Dev mode will try to render the full image. If I need to screen images quickly I stay in Library mode, have auto advance set, have one finger over the x key and another of the 1 key. I reject or give an image a 1 star, occasionally giving a 2 or 3 if something really jumps out. Have your filter so that rejected images are excluded from the library view.... so they disappear as soon as you reject them. You can always do a review of these later to be sure that there are no obvious mistakes made.

PhotoMechanic had advantages where you wish to tag metadata quickly to individual images (eg Names based on Shirt Numbers, etc) or where you quickly need to apply deep metadata to images very quickly. If PhotoMechanic is the correct tool for you, then having a good knowledge of Lr will be a good foundation for exploring PM.

 

[Gnits]

It is worth reading this short blog post by Mike Johnston of The Online Photographer and viewing the referenced video clip and article links.

https://theonlinephotographer.typep...rapher/2023/04/rick-rubins-ruthless-edit.html

 

[BobT]

I am still a bit confused by the many preview types...

Same!
I use LrC only.
First cull in the import dialogue but before importing. All images unticked, then with caps lock on, tick only those images that are not clearly OOF. Import ticked images. I use "Save second copy to" to a temp file, just in case but rarely need it.
Second cull, go through imported images more critically, tick those not OOF. Ctrl-Alt-R to refine. Ctrl-backspace to delete the unticked.
Third cull, select groups of similar images. Use Compare to choose the best and tick. Delete the rest.

I thought apps that select the sharpest of a burst is a good idea but sometimes the technically sharpest is not the best composition, so not a fan.

 

[David Gordon]

I need to determine if to invest in a software like Photo Mechanic

Yes you do!

I'll go against the grain here and suggest you should use PM in your workflow. You're shooting a lot of frames and getting paid. You need to work quickly, accurately and efficiently.

An important point about Photo Mechanic is its metadata tools. You're going to want these to accurately caption images with - I guess - actor, director and crew names as well as other production details. Lightroom can't touch PM here and this is where I do all my metadata work.

I'll occasionally shoot as many as 1000 frames on a job, here's my workflow:

In Photo Mechanic I have a basic caption, copyright etc 'stationary pad' for the job.
Photo Mechanic 'ingests' from card to hard drive, copying all the frames while adding metadata. There's an option to copy to another drive for backup.
I go through each frame giving a 1 star rating to those I like (this can be done while still ingesting) then - just looking at 1 star frames - go back and edit down adding 2 star rating to the best. Continue as required until you have a set.
At this point I will refine the captions, adding specific names, locations, whatever to individual frames as required. (PM's tools for this are superb but take a little learning to make the most of.)
Now I select my selected images in PM and drag them to LrC where they are imported. Point here is of 1000 images I'm only importing 100 or so selected.
Process to taste in Lightroom!
I export JPEGs from LrC which are automatically opened in a new Photo Mechanic contact sheet. From here I FTP them to client.

My workflow culls images before you even touch Lightroom! However, I don't cull, I keep. So once I've delivered I simply synchronise LrC to get the other 900 images into my catalog. I more likely shoot 200 - 300 frames and edit down to 20 or 30. I like to get that done, fully captioned, processed in LrC and delivered in around 30 minutes. Including a nice cup of tea!

I can see why a lot of people here wouldn't need PM. I couldn't work without it.

Remember there are two versions of PM, Photo Mechanic and Photo Mechanic Plus. The Plus version gets you a DAM using a catalogue, the 'original' version is just a browser. I do have and use the Plus version however its DAM - while very good - isn't quite as nice of as fast as using LrC.

 

[Zenon]

I use Canon's DPP at both ends. I always pre-cull using Quick Check - Full Screen. I select all the files, open Quick Check, scroll through and X out files I won't use. Then I exit, select rejected files only and move them to the trash. Quick Check shows the final Jpeg look. Sharp, contrasty and DPP's screen scaling is excellent.

After exporting from LrC and primarily for web presentation I use DPP to view the finished file. Again the scaling is fantastic, unlike Apple's preview which is pathetic on a large 5K screen. At one time I used PS to view my final files but they are half the size on a 5K screen. I know it scales properly but it is useless to me.

If I was a working pro I'd likely be using PM, etc but for my needs DPP fits the bill.

 

[Replytoken]

I like to cull outside of LT before I import. I use FastStone Image Viewer (FSIV) in conjunction with Fast Raw Viewer. I have used FSIV for years and find it meets my needs. I especially like that you can compare up to four images on one screen. I use Fast Raw viewer (called from within FSIV) when I want to view the raw file itself if I have questions about it.

We all have different work flows with different priorities, so you should decide what is important to you, and choose your software from there. I know PM is loved by many, but it does not necessarily offer what I need in my culling process. If I worked on a production deadline routinely, then I am sure that my work flow would change accordingly.

Good luck,

--Ken

 

[studio_2]

With a typical volume of 1000 photos per session and not having the pressure of posting the keepers to a news feed at half time / full time.. I think you would be best optimising your Lr workflow. Some good suggestions already re handling of previews. Avoid moving from Library Mode to Develop Mode and back as the Dev mode will try to render the full image. If I need to screen images quickly I stay in Library mode, have auto advance set, have one finger over the x key and another of the 1 key. I reject or give an image a 1 star, occasionally giving a 2 or 3 if something really jumps out. Have your filter so that rejected images are excluded from the library view.... so they disappear as soon as you reject them. You can always do a review of these later to be sure that there are no obvious mistakes made.

PhotoMechanic had advantages where you wish to tag metadata quickly to individual images (eg Names based on Shirt Numbers, etc) or where you quickly need to apply deep metadata to images very quickly. If PhotoMechanic is the correct tool for you, then having a good knowledge of Lr will be a good foundation for exploring PM.

thanks very interesting points indeed

 

[studio_2]

Same!
I use LrC only.
First cull in the import dialogue but before importing. All images unticked, then with caps lock on, tick only those images that are not clearly OOF. Import ticked images. I use "Save second copy to" to a temp file, just in case but rarely need it.
Second cull, go through imported images more critically, tick those not OOF. Ctrl-Alt-R to refine. Ctrl-backspace to delete the unticked.
Third cull, select groups of similar images. Use Compare to choose the best and tick. Delete the rest.

I thought apps that select the sharpest of a burst is a good idea but sometimes the technically sharpest is not the best composition, so not a fan.

great points about starting to cull before even importing

 

[studio_2]

Yes you do!

I'll go against the grain here and suggest you should use PM in your workflow. You're shooting a lot of frames and getting paid. You need to work quickly, accurately and efficiently.

An important point about Photo Mechanic is its metadata tools. You're going to want these to accurately caption images with - I guess - actor, director and crew names as well as other production details. Lightroom can't touch PM here and this is where I do all my metadata work.

I'll occasionally shoot as many as 1000 frames on a job, here's my workflow:

In Photo Mechanic I have a basic caption, copyright etc 'stationary pad' for the job.
Photo Mechanic 'ingests' from card to hard drive, copying all the frames while adding metadata. There's an option to copy to another drive for backup.
I go through each frame giving a 1 star rating to those I like (this can be done while still ingesting) then - just looking at 1 star frames - go back and edit down adding 2 star rating to the best. Continue as required until you have a set.
At this point I will refine the captions, adding specific names, locations, whatever to individual frames as required. (PM's tools for this are superb but take a little learning to make the most of.)
Now I select my selected images in PM and drag them to LrC where they are imported. Point here is of 1000 images I'm only importing 100 or so selected.
Process to taste in Lightroom!
I export JPEGs from LrC which are automatically opened in a new Photo Mechanic contact sheet. From here I FTP them to client.

My workflow culls images before you even touch Lightroom! However, I don't cull, I keep. So once I've delivered I simply synchronise LrC to get the other 900 images into my catalog. I more likely shoot 200 - 300 frames and edit down to 20 or 30. I like to get that done, fully captioned, processed in LrC and delivered in around 30 minutes. Including a nice cup of tea!

I can see why a lot of people here wouldn't need PM. I couldn't work without it.

Remember there are two versions of PM, Photo Mechanic and Photo Mechanic Plus. The Plus version gets you a DAM using a catalogue, the 'original' version is just a browser. I do have and use the Plus version however its DAM - while very good - isn't quite as nice of as fast as using LrC.

thanks your workflow sounds very well constructed - I am definitely giving PM a go and see how I find it

 

[BobT]

Yes you do!

I'll go against the grain here and suggest you should use PM in your workflow. You're shooting a lot of frames and getting paid. You need to work quickly, accurately and efficiently.

Point taken. I'm not in your league.

 

[Jimmsp]

Point taken. I'm not in your league.

Neither am I . I would say that the concept of required response time needs to be a key factor. Indeed, if it is hours, PM sounds like a good tool.
If it is "a few days", then I'd say to reconsider its use.

 

[studio_2]

Neither am I . I would say that the concept of required response time needs to be a key factor. Indeed, if it is hours, PM sounds like a good tool.
If it is "a few days", then I'd say to reconsider its use.

Me I’m in the days category for now but I might have jobs that require delivery in hours some day

 

[tspear]

@studio_2

I made the leap away from LrC to the Lr cloud solution; so I am about a year and half away from using LrC on a regular basis.
@David Gordon , @Gnits , @Replytoken and others have very good points if you are working with older versions of LrC. Until recently, LrC only worked with the full raw data, and the reality is the embedded previews in many raw files is good enough for the initial culling.
I briefly used Photo Mechanic, Capture One, Adobe Bridge... and many others. When I started with Classic a decade ago, I found that many keyboard shortcuts did not exist or function very well compared to outside tools. Very slowly, Adobe has been addressing these issues. When you look at the release notes, it feels like Adobe started by focusing on the end of the process and slowly worked forward. Only now, does it feel like Adobe has listened; and from start to finish for rapid culling/photo management does Adobe have a very solid capability (and this is Classic only, there are some significant gaps for this on the cloud side, but I digress).

The result, if you started professionally a decade ago, or maybe even five years ago, tools such a Photo Mechanic became standard parts of the workflow for many photographers. One result for many of these photographers, they have invested a significant amount of time gaining skills in the additional software to speed up their workflow. To replicate this speed in a current version of LrC would require significant time and energy; and likely has minimal to no return for them.

I would instead suggest looking at the following factors:

1. What specific function are people using outside Lr? Assigning meta-data, quick pick/reject using embedded previews? Then find how do perform this in LrC, and do not accept that there is only one way. Most of the time, LrC has multiple paths to accomplish a DAM task.
2. How to increase sped within LrC in your workflow. For example, here are three ways you can apply meta-data in LrC in a bulk fashion. Depending on the fields in play, and how many you are setting (along with your flow/sequence) will determine which is the best avenue, never forget that you might use more than one. For example Author could be set on import, job information via information panel.
   1. On import
   2. By selecting images and editing the value on the information dialog
   3. by setting all desired values on one image, using the selective copy function, and mass apply to all desired images.
3. Start working with LrC keyboard shortcuts. No mouse user can every keep up with a keyboard warrior.

Tim