Derivatives, Snapshots, Virtual Copies and Non Destructive editing.

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clee01l

clee01l

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If I export to the web or print without creating and storing a permanent derivative of the RAW file, How do I keep track of which version I am looking at if I view the print or web image? If I need to repeat an export of the version, how do I find it again? It may not be the last one in History. And unless I named my Snapshot or Virtual Copy something like "Version 1.1 Loaded to Flickr on 2''9'7'7", I have not surety that any snapshot is the one on the Web This becomes evem more complex if I export a batch or export the same version to multiple places.
 
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Creating and labeling a snapshot is how I keep track of this now. I use snapshots to keep track of web versions, print sizes, and a host of other 'finished' versions of a file.
 
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I'm not too thrilled about naming my snapshots thing like "Version 1.1 Loaded to Flickr on 2''9'7'7" or "Submitted to the NDC art and Photo exhibit 2''9'418". How are yours named?
 
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My way is to name Export templates depending on usage.

For example, if upload images to iWeb, I have an Export template named iWeb so I always get the same results. I also use named Print templates...
 
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[quote author=Denis Pagé link=topic=7181.msg48865#msg48865 date=1247252245]
My way is to name Export templates depending on usage.

For example, if upload images to iWeb, I have an Export template named iWeb so I always get the same results. I also use named Print templates...
[/quote]I think you misunderstand. It is not the Export templates, it is the DNG files with edits that can change when I export. If I export twice using the same template there is no guarantee that the Edit History for the first export is the current History. I can take a snapshot or make a virtual copy but If I am looking at the exported result ther is no obvious way to tell from the derivative what went into the edit to change the DNG to create that derivative. This is especially difficult if the export is a print which does not even show EXIF data.

If the object of Lightroom's non destructive edit process is to create a Just-In-Time derivative and not store a JPEG permanently, How can you be sure that the JIT export this year is thesame as the JIT export last year?
 
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[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=7181.msg48863#msg48863 date=1247251819]
I'm not too thrilled about naming my snapshots thing like "Version 1.1 Loaded to Flickr on 2''9'7'7" or "Submitted to the NDC art and Photo exhibit 2''9'418". How are yours named?
[/quote]

Well, I expect that's more or less how you'd have to do it. How did you do it before? Surely, at some point, something got a complicated name, or folder location.
Mostly, my work's not that fastidious, but on the rare occasion I need to, I generally name the snapshot, or VC.
 
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I don't think there is an easy way to achieve what you want unless it is done as part of the export process (I'll come back to that). You could use a snapshot, but a virtual copy would be better because then you can use smart collections to find and group VC's that have been uploaded. Their metadata can also vary from the master - eg if you want online images to have different titles. Just make sure you enter something in Copy Name which you can track.

Another approach is something I'm doing with an export plugin. I use the SlideShowPro Director plugin and have modified it so that during the export process it records that I've uploaded a picture. This info shows in a custom metadata panel, and can be tracked by smart collections and the filter panel. Now, if you are using Jeffrey Friedl's Flickr plugin, maybe he has already done that, or could do so?

It's also worth adding that the overall issue is something Adobe are aware of.

John
 
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[quote author=Brad Snyder link=topic=7181.msg48877#msg48877 date=1247262654]
[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=7181.msg48863#msg48863 date=1247251819]
I'm not too thrilled about naming my snapshots thing like "Version 1.1 Loaded to Flickr on 2''9'7'7" or "Submitted to the NDC art and Photo exhibit 2''9'418". How are yours named?
[/quote]

Well, I expect that's more or less how you'd have to do it. How did you do it before? Surely, at some point, something got a complicated name, or folder location.
Mostly, my work's not that fastidious, but on the rare occasion I need to, I generally name the snapshot, or VC.

[/quote]Before Lightroom, I kept a derivative JPEG copy in a subfolder called "merit" So my folder structure was <original Import folder>/RAW/merit. SOOC JPEGs went in the <original Import folder>. The SOOC DNG files went into /RAW and derivatives from both JPEGs and RAW went into /merit.

When enquiring about a catalog and import strategy as I was beginning, Someone (perhaps a moderator) recommended not keeping derivatives at all to save storage space since that could be recreated on the fly. My previous RAW image editor was Bibble Pro and it generated a unique 'sidecar' file for every edit I saved. LR seems to keep the process flow in the database and not create an XML file for every edit exported. What's more it appears to be dynamic except for snapshots.

If I abandon my previous philosophy of creating a derivative JPEG for each export, I need to know how to find and recreate earlier edits.
 
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[quote author=johnbeardy link=topic=7181.msg48879#msg48879 date=1247263'84]
I don't think there is an easy way to achieve what you want unless it is done as part of the export process ...
Another approach is something I'm doing with an export plugin. ... Now, if you are using Jeffrey Friedl's Flickr plugin, maybe he has already done that, or could do so?

It's also worth adding that the overall issue is something Adobe are aware of.
[/quote]Apparently the solution resides in the Snapshot. Because what I need is the edit settings used to create the exported image. I've been using Jeffrey Freidl's Flickr Plugin but all it does is add a metadata entry that a DNG has been sent to Flickr but no indication as to which version. Flickr presents an interestig solution which is to use Mike Wiacek's Preset Extractor to recover my own settings. However this is is of no benefit to print or other types of export. Nor can it be used if the file on Flickr gets deleted.

An earlier thread that I started asked about updating keywords and metadata in the Develop module. It is a manual proces but it does permit me to track develop dettings via a preset keyword or embed the preset elsewher in the metadata.
 
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[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=7181.msg48863#msg48863 date=1247251819]
I'm not too thrilled about naming my snapshots thing like "Version 1.1 Loaded to Flickr on 2''9'7'7" or "Submitted to the NDC art and Photo exhibit 2''9'418". How are yours named?
[/quote]

Flicker2''9'7'7 or NDC2''9'418. The rest of the words are not descriptive of the name but rather the syntax of the language you speak. Where.When and possibly a version number although I personally don't use them.

I also, say when creating a snapshot of a 5x7 crop, go back and keyword with a "5x7" keyword. Then it is searchable and I don't have loose virtual copies scattered about. Friedl's Flickr Plugin keeps track of the Upload in Metadata in the case of Flickr.
 
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Apologies if I mis-understand your issue, but why not create VC's and use collections ? I presumed that was exactly the type of thing they were designed for. Snapshots are great for the developing stages but once you have an image ready for final output a VC makes more sense. Filtering and searching your 'output' is also much easier.
 
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How bout Adobe create an Export Snapshot/History that is tagged to every image as metadata. Either a history list of all exports is available or for every VC. You would click on "Export history" and see a list of all the different naming conventions according to what and where you exported it too, including the export and develop settings.
 
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[quote author=Braders link=topic=7181.msg48895#msg48895 date=1247274375]
How bout Adobe create an Export Snapshot/History that is tagged to every image as metadata. Either a history list of all exports is available or for every VC. You would click on "Export history" and see a list of all the different naming conventions according to what and where you exported it too, including the export and develop settings.
[/quote]

Awesome idea. I picture a text box in the Export dialog where I can name the snapshot if so desired.

Have you submitted this as a feature request?
 
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I agree it is a good idea - why should history be limited to what you do in Develop or not be accessed by query tools?

For now, as I pointed out earlier, it is already possible to make an export plug-in record certain details to a custom field. It does not need to be a special export plug-in such as one of Jeffrey Friedl's, just a vanilla clone of the standard built in one. If you were to use this plug-in each time you exported, it would build up a record of each file's export activity. However, those details would not contain any Develop information as it's not exposed to the SDK.

John
 
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[quote author=Mark Sirota link=topic=7181.msg49'43#msg49'43 date=124751'52']
[quote author=Braders link=topic=7181.msg48895#msg48895 date=1247274375]
How bout Adobe create an Export Snapshot/History that is tagged to every image as metadata. Either a history list of all exports is available or for every VC. You would click on "Export history" and see a list of all the different naming conventions according to what and where you exported it too, including the export and develop settings.
[/quote]Awesome idea. I picture a text box in the Export dialog where I can name the snapshot if so desired.

Have you submitted this as a feature request?
[/quote]In another thread, John Beardsworth has made an excellent case for using VCs instead of Snapshots. I have decided to use VCs for all my future exports. A named VC would serve the same purpose. In addition, I have discovered that the Library metadata filter has a filter parameter for Develop Presets. This will filter for every Named Preset plus the Default settings and Custom. The process history of an image is not so important as the final filter settings. By naming these as a preset, I can recreate any previously exported image. If I can identify the VC that was used for the export. For files that are created or end up on the Web, the VC shoould be easy to ID from info in the EXIF. Images that only get output as print media, the task is more difficult but possible.
 
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[quote author=Mark Sirota link=topic=7181.msg49'43#msg49'43 date=124751'52']
Awesome idea. I picture a text box in the Export dialog where I can name the snapshot if so desired.

Have you submitted this as a feature request?
[/quote]

Have now Mark.

Made a feature request in here, but no one seemed to take note or agree? Surprising really, considering how the functionality would really change a few aspects of the work flow.

Clee..while VC are good for different versions of the same original file (ie: different develop settings), snapshots of the same files' exports provide different exports of the same develop setting.
 
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...and as Snapshots are related to the original as per the database structure, if you create a Snapshot in a Virtual Copy, that Snapshot will be available to the original photo and can be written to the XMP data of the original. Think of it as a way to save Virtual Copies outside the catalog.

EDIT: Note that if you delete a virtual copy, any snapshots created within it will disappear from the original's history.
 
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[quote author=Denis Pagé link=topic=7181.msg51'''#msg51''' date=1249479842]

EDIT: Note that if you delete a virtual copy, any snapshots created within it will disappear from the original's history.
[/quote]

I just tested this and it is not correct. The snap shot is not deleted when you delete the VC. The snap shot is still available in the master.
 
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[quote author=Denis Pagé link=topic=7181.msg51'''#msg51''' date=1249479842]
...and as Snapshots are related to the original as per the database structure, if you create a Snapshot in a Virtual Copy, that Snapshot will be available to the original photo and can be written to the XMP data of the original. Think of it as a way to save Virtual Copies outside the catalog.

EDIT: Note that if you delete a virtual copy, any snapshots created within it will disappear from the original's history.
[/quote]In the end, I have adopted a combination approach. Snapshots can exist outside of the catalog database in the XMP or XMP sidecar file. Snapshots can be created and named while in the Develop module. VCs can be created but not named anything other than the default name which is not meaningful. My goal for persistant tracking is twofold: to carry everything in the original DNG master file so that I am not dependent upon the Lightroom catalog for develop filters and to write that snapshot/VC unique name into the EXIF in a place like Job Identifier where it is available to derivative files or websites like Flickr.
 
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[quote author=MarkNicholas link=topic=7181.msg51''4#msg51''4 date=1249483876]
I just tested this and it is not correct. The snap shot is not deleted when you delete the VC. The snap shot is still available in the master.
[/quote]
That would make sense. As I said, the Snapshot is linked to the original. But in my case, they do disappear if the VC that created them is deleted. May be a question of write buffering. What if you close then open Lightroom?
 
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[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=7181.msg51''6#msg51''6 date=1249484123]
VCs can be created but not named anything other than the default name which is not meaningful.[/quote]
To name a VC, go in the metadata panel in Library and under "File Name", there is "Copy Name"...
 
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[quote author=Denis Pagé link=topic=7181.msg51''8#msg51''8 date=1249484889]
[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=7181.msg51''6#msg51''6 date=1249484123]
VCs can be created but not named anything other than the default name which is not meaningful.[/quote]
To name a VC, go in the metadata panel in Library and under "File Name", there is "Copy Name"...
[/quote]This is a 'round trip' I am trying to avoid. I have a need to access/update the metadata while in the Develop module. I might have a desire to create several versions of an image while in Develop. If I go back to the Library mode, I can't see the Snapshot name. If I created 5 snapshots and 2 VCs, I have to go back to the Library Module after every VC and trust my short term memory long enough to name the VC to tie it to a Snapshot that I created in Develop and Stored in XMP.
I feel like Dirty Harry: "You're thinking "did he fire six shots or only five?" Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement..."
 
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[quote author=clee'1l ]
This is a 'round trip' I am trying to avoid. I have a need to access/update the metadata while in the Develop module. I might have a desire to create several versions of an image while in Develop. If I go back to the Library mode, I can't see the Snapshot name. If I created 5 snapshots and 2 VCs, I have to go back to the Library Module after every VC and trust my short term memory long enough to name the VC to tie it to a Snapshot that I created in Develop and Stored in XMP.
I feel like Dirty Harry: "You're thinking "did he fire six shots or only five?" Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement..."
[/quote]
Cletus,
I'm having a discussion on a very similar topic elsewhere, with some very sophisticated Lr users. Principally on the seeming artificial division between the Library and Develop modules. I argue for the increased productivity of certain metadata functionality being seamlessly available in Develop. I'm more or less told, that my workflow is in error, and that I have a faulty understanding of the issues.

So, I'm going to echo Denis' <shrug>, and hope for the best, as Lr evolves.
 
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[quote author=Brad Snyder link=topic=7181.msg51'31#msg51'31 date=1249494235]
I'm more or less told, that my workflow is in error, and that I have a faulty understanding of the issues.[/quote]"My way or the Highway" attitudes don't cut it. Your workflow is just that, Yours. It is not right or wrong. And neither should mine be. The software world is littered with the corpses of companies that thought they could dictate how things were going to be. Keep plugging with your sophisticated Lr Users and tell them to get their heads out of the...



clouds.
 
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