Denoise success

[rockmen66]

Lightroom Version Number

13.2

Operating System

1. macOS 14 Sonoma

I did a photoshoot of a friends wedding. It was indoors an the light was not great. I was trying to avoid flash if possible. I was using a Nikon Z6ll and a Z6. Lenses were 24-70 F4 and a Nikon 70-200 F4. Did a few with bounced flash but most were taken in natural light, just letting auto iso ramp up.
The results were surprisingly good, probably due to the good low light performance of the Z6ll and Z6. However there was still abit of grain visible in some of the shots. So I tried using Lightrooms “Denoise” function and what a difference. I was really surprised how good it was at removing noise.

 

[Paul_DS256]

Agreed. I've had good success at ISO 10K from my Nikon D750 with Denoise.

 

[clee01l]

The first digital camera I used was a Pentax K10D (10mp). I was pleased with the images that I captured. However they were often noisy. I soon started shooting RAW (DNGs) and still have most of those image in my LrC inventory. I even held on to some of the “culls” that were almost good enough to keep but too good to throw away. Because of LrC’s introduction of DeNoise, I have been happily reprocessing the RAW shots and using Topaz Photo AI on the JPGs. With the introduction of Generative Expand in Photoshop, I’ve been able to recompose these to 16:9 for the big screen.


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[rockmen66]

Is it worth keeping the original RAW or just the DNG that DeNoise creates?

 

[Johan Elzenga]

I would always keep the orignal raw too. New algoritms with even better results could be introduced one day, and you don't know if you could use them on an already denoised DNG or only on a mosaiced raw like it is now.

 

[clee01l]

Is it worth keeping the original RAW or just the DNG that DeNoise creates?

If I did not have the original RAW files going back 17 years, I could not take advantage of the new DeNoise feature today on those images. Who is not to say what wonders will be introduced in the next 17 years?


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[Zenon]

April will mark the one year anniversary of the release of Denoise AI. Last fall Adobe cut the DNG size by ⅔ with the release of LrC 13. That was a big improvement. I'm kinda hoping for a surprise next month based on a few things Eric Chan talked about. Or maybe even something different. DXO came out with DeepPrime XD2 a few weeks ago so Adobe can't let them relax. If not that's OK. It will come. Competition is good.

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/04/18/denoise-demystified

I love it. After the release last year I turfed all of my 3rd party NR apps. I only kept Topaz Sharpen AI which I use sparingly. Be nice to see something in that area one day.

 

[clee01l]

I would be happier to see DeNoise extended to include non RAW files. For instance, I can not perform Super resolution, Panorama or conventional HDR and Denoise on the same image as each generates a DNG product and currently Denois only works with RAW files.

If Adobe does include Denoise with ACR, I would only hope it is optional. Many of my images do not need DeNoise.

 

[Gnits]

I took some impromptu images in a dark pub, with my pocket camera ( a6700, kit lens and small flash). I did not have time to set up, as needed to grab what was happening. I sensed I caught the few fleeting magic moments ... but horrified later, as I imported the images and all frames were jet black. I did not realise I had left camera set to auto iso (my new default for non landscape images) and images were captured at 12,000 ISO. Aaaah!

I used the exposure slider and could see some detail... but horrible noise... as expected. I adjusted exposure to get a reasonable looking shot, despite the noise.... then batch Ai Denoised all the session images.

The results were spectacular and the people involved were more than thrilled to get images capturing a special moment in time. The extreme editing had its own charm.

Of course.... much better to get the lighting correct in the first place...

So a big thanks to AI Denoise.

 

[Zenon]

I would be happier to see DeNoise extended to include non RAW files. For instance, I can not perform Super resolution, Panorama or conventional HDR and Denoise on the same image as each generates a DNG product and currently Denois only works with RAW files.

If Adobe does include Denoise with ACR, I would only hope it is optional. Many of my images do not need DeNoise.

Yes it would be nice to include other formats. I also like the way they set it up as I also do not apply it to all my files. Kept the traditional method for speed editing. It would be interesting to see if they can get around creating a DNG.

I must have missed something because I see the option to use Denoise in ACR.

 

[Zenon]

I took some impromptu images in a dark pub, with my pocket camera ( a6700, kit lens and small flash). I did not have time to set up, as needed to grab what was happening. I sensed I caught the few fleeting magic moments ... but horrified later, as I imported the images and all frames were jet black. I did not realise I had left camera set to auto iso (my new default for non landscape images) and images were captured at 12,000 ISO. Aaaah!

I used the exposure slider and could see some detail... but horrible noise... as expected. I adjusted exposure to get a reasonable looking shot, despite the noise.... then batch Ai Denoised all the session images.

The results were spectacular and the people involved were more than thrilled to get images capturing a special moment in time. The extreme editing had its own charm.

Of course.... much better to get the lighting correct in the first place...

So a big thanks to AI Denoise.

A person on another site was shooting macro and the flash did not fire. Also a pretty much black file and I could not believe what he was able to extract. If he hadn't of told the story no one would have known.

 

[clee01l]

Yes it would be nice to include other formats. I also like the way they set it up as I also do not apply it to all my files. Kept the traditional method for speed editing. It would be interesting to see if they can get around creating a DNG.

I must have missed something because I see the option to use Denoise in ACR.

By ACR, I mean as used by Lightroom. The result from Demosaicing in ACR or LrC DXO is apparently applying the Denoise AI process instead of the NR process that is applied to RAW images during the demosaicing process. I think Adobe could do that too easily enough but the AI process is then replacing standard NR.

AI could be more intelligent and determine how much Denoise is applied without user intervention as is the case now. I keep my Denoise setting at 85 and rarely change it. If the Denoise process could be intelligent enough to determine how much NR needs to be applied, then It could always be applies during the Demosaicing process instead of the NR that is currently being applied.

ACR creates an image that is passed to PS instead of an intermediate file. This might be doable in LrC if the Denoise RGB file is stored as a preview file.


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[Zenon]

By ACR, I mean as used by Lightroom. The result from Demosaicing in ACR or LrC DXO is apparently applying the Denoise AI process instead of the NR process that is applied to RAW images during the demosaicing process. I think Adobe could do that too easily enough but the AI process is then replacing standard NR.

AI could be more intelligent and determine how much Denoise is applied without user intervention as is the case now. I keep my Denoise setting at 85 and rarely change it. If the Denoise process could be intelligent enough to determine how much NR needs to be applied, then It could always be applies during the Demosaicing process instead of the NR that is currently being applied.

ACR creates an image that is passed to PS instead of an intermediate file. This might be doable in LrC if the Denoise RGB file is stored as a preview file.


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I see. Thanks. I knew there was more to it.

 

[BobT]

AI could be more intelligent and determine how much Denoise is applied without user intervention as is the case now. I keep my Denoise setting at 85 and rarely change it. If the Denoise process could be intelligent enough to determine how much NR needs to be applied, then It could always be applies during the Demosaicing process instead of the NR that is currently being applied.

Indeed, however, we would still need a way of backing it off, lest it throws up AI artifacts as can happen when near 100%.

 

[clee01l]

Indeed, however, we would still need a way of backing it off, lest it throws up AI artifacts as can happen when near 100%.

DeNoise AI on my computer takes 3-8 seconds and the result is a derivative DNG. It takes me longer to evaluate the preview to determine whether to apply it to the whole image. An intelligent AI would be quicker and I can always discard the derivative DNG if I don't like there result.

 

[Zenon]

DeNoise AI on my computer takes 3-8 seconds and the result is a derivative DNG. It takes me longer to evaluate the preview to determine whether to apply it to the whole image. An intelligent AI would be quicker and I can always discard the derivative DNG if I don't like there result.

That's pretty fast. 33 seconds on my iMac with 64 GB RAM and 8GB VRAM. 115 seconds on my MacBook Air M1 with 16GB RAM. Since I travel and shoot as a hobby 115 is not too bad. At least it's not 10 minutes. I'm kind of hoping Apple fixes that bug which prevents M chips to function properly but now Tim Apple ( ) has his hands full. It will be a few years before I get new devices. Two years for the iMac I figure or onceI can't install the latest OS.

How do you apply Denoise selectively when the Enhance window is open?

 

[Zenon]

Indeed, however, we would still need a way of backing it off, l60.est it throws up AI artifacts as can happen when near 100%.

By ACR, I mean as used by Lightroom. The result from Demosaicing in ACR or LrC DXO is apparently applying the Denoise AI process instead of the NR process that is applied to RAW images during the demosaicing process. I think Adobe could do that too easily enough but the AI process is then replacing standard NR.

AI could be more intelligent and determine how much Denoise is applied without user intervention as is the case now. I keep my Denoise setting at 85 and rarely change it. If the Denoise process could be intelligent enough to determine how much NR needs to be applied, then It could always be applies during the Demosaicing process instead of the NR that is currently being applied.

ACR creates an image that is passed to PS instead of an intermediate file. This might be doable in LrC if the Denoise RGB file is stored as a preview file.


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I've never tried it that high. For really high ISO I'll usually go about 60. I recently processed a nighttime shot at 51200 which I set to about 60. I then went into masking and masked the sky. I reduced Texture, Sharpening and added to the noise slider to finish it off. Today I gave 85 a try. Not that bad but I would not use it on birds or other files where I want to maintain detail. Not that I'd use a file of a bird shot at 51200. I'll keep that in mind next time I have that type of file.

 

[clee01l]

That's pretty fast. 33 seconds on my iMac with 64 GB RAM and 8GB VRAM. 115 seconds on my MacBook Air M1 with 16GB RAM. Since I travel and shoot as a hobby 115 is not too bad. At least it's not 10 minutes. I'm kind of hoping Apple fixes that bug which prevents M chips to function properly but now Tim Apple ( ) has his hands full. It will be a few years before I get new devices. Two years for the iMac I figure or onceI can't install the latest OS.

How do you apply Denoise selectively when the Enhance window is open?

The Enhance window is the Preview window. Pressing the {Denoise} button invokes the Enhance window. It could instead simply trigger an automatic DeNoise application.

Have a new Mac Studio M2 Ultra with 64GB of unified Memory and presumably the same Neural Engine. I replaced a 16GB M1 iMac which was much much slower.

 

[Zenon]

The Enhance window is the Preview window. Pressing the {Denoise} button invokes the Enhance window. It could instead simply trigger an automatic DeNoise application.

Have a new Mac Studio M2 Ultra with 64GB of unified Memory and presumably the same Neural Engine. I replaced a 16GB M1 iMac which was much much slower.

Doh. I see. You open it to decide if you will apply Denoise which takes longer than the process itself.

64GB will be in my future M chip Macs. A given on the desktop.

 

[clee01l]

For really high ISO I'll usually go about 60.

The Images that I have been using DeNoise on are old Pentax K10D and K20D Raw images. Some are 12 - 15 years old. Even though the cameras were able to produce higher ISO settings, I was mostly forced to shoot at ISO 400 -800 because of the noise. 80-85 is able to clean these images up nicely.

 

[Zenon]

It would be the cats meow if you could use Denoise with masking. Apply different levels of noise to the subject and background. Before Denoise AI, I occasionally used that two step method with PS. Create two files in LrC. Denoised/sharpened for the subject and the other for the background. Send both to PS and blend. Not sure if blend is the correct word. I have not sent a file to PS since LrC 11. I can do that with LrC masking now. I love it.

 

[clee01l]

It would be the cats meow if you could use Denoise with masking. Apply different levels of noise to the subject and background. Before Denoise AI, I occasionally used that two step method with PS. Create two files in LrC. Denoised/sharpened for the subject and the other for the background. Send both to PS and blend. Not sure if blend is the correct word. I have not sent a file to PS since LrC 11. I can do that with LrC masking now. I love it.

For this and other issue where the RAWfile is not available, I have been using Topaz Photo AI. It can mask the subject or the background


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[rockmen66]

I picked random 22 Nikon Raw files clicked on Denoise and it took just under 262 seconds to complete. The machine was a 16" MacBook M2 Pro Max with 64GB mem. 12 CPU cores and 38 GPU cores All cores working and all GPU cores working. Don't know if this was good or bad. First time I have heard the fans crank up. Sure takes a lot of processing power to do 22 images at once.

 

[BobT]

I've never tried it that high. For really high ISO I'll usually go about 60. I recently processed a nighttime shot at 51200 which I set to about 60. I then went into masking and masked the sky. I reduced Texture, Sharpening and added to the noise slider to finish it off. Today I gave 85 a try. Not that bad but I would not use it on birds or other files where I want to maintain detail. Not that I'd use a file of a bird shot at 51200. I'll keep that in mind next time I have that type of file.

I think I've written this before. I was testing AI Denoise against other software on a full moon shot. It was on 100%. I pixel peeped the detail then thought I'd discovered an alien moon base, but it was artifacts. The artifacts were larger and more localised than sharpening artifacts. It's as if the AI throws a tizzy fit if pushed too far on certain shapes.

 

[Zenon]

I think I've written this before. I was testing AI Denoise against other software on a full moon shot. It was on 100%. I pixel peeped the detail then thought I'd discovered an alien moon base, but it was artifacts. The artifacts were larger and more localised than sharpening artifacts. It's as if the AI throws a tizzy fit if pushed too far on certain shapes.

You may have as I recall something like the posted.