"Color By Printer" problems with Epson???

[billg71]

I discovered something inadvertently today while trying to get my 38'' to print correctly on matte paper(it wouldn't, Epson is sending me a replacement !!!) ...

Try this: download this file: Print Quality Check.tif and save it on your desktop. It's a 4'K tiff that looks like this:

Import it into LR and print it using "Color Managed by Printer", setting your printer to the proper paper type and Auto mode, Epson Standard (sRGB).

When I print it this way it comes out looking something like this(approximately, I don't have a scanner but this is pretty close):

It seems Epson's Automatic color setting doesn't like ProPhoto RGB. The file doesn't have a color space, if you open it in PS directly(not Edit In Photoshop from LR) and don't assign a space, you can convert it to aRGB or sRGB and it will print fine. If you convert or assign it to ProPhoto you get the above. I tried it in CS3 and Capture NX and got the same results. The print was fine unless I sent a ProPhoto file to the printer. This was with both the 48'' and the 38'', so it's not a driver-specific thing.

The results aren't quite as evident in a photo unless it contains a lot of reds, which is how I first noticed it. I've always run a color-managed workflow, using paper profiles and all that and hadn't ever run a straight file through the printer before. I have all three programs set up to use Pro Photo as the default color space, just for consistency.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who wants to try this, mainly to confirm it's an Epson thing and not some strange bug in my system. If we can get some confirmation on this, it might explain some of the problems folks have been having with their Epsons. I'm running the latest drivers and firmware on both printers, if you can duplicate the problem please post driver/firmware versions if not current.

Thanx,

 

[Victoria Bampton]

That's quite a difference Bill!

What do you mean when you say Epson's Automatic colour setting? Surely you don't want the printer driver adjusting the colours in your colour managed workflow?

 

[Kiwigeoff]

That's quite a difference Bill!

What do you mean when you say Epson's Automatic colour setting? Surely you don't want the printer driver adjusting the colours in your colour managed workflow?

I didn't want to give Bill a hard time and say what the ---- are you doing letting the printer manage the file.....:lol::lol:
Bill, I think the consensus is that LR managed colour works best, it certainly does with my R18''.
Once set up it is quite simple. Ask if you have any questions....:roll::roll:

 

[billg71]

I had never tried the Managed by Printer option before, but while on the phone with the Epson tech he wanted me to do a print just using the printer driver and that was the result. It wasn't on a test chart, just my usual test image and it looked awful. :shock:

So I decided to do some investigating and the results are in my first post. Works the same on the 38'' and the 48'', my 22'' is unplugged so I can't check it. Using LR or PS or NX to manage colors with an appropriate paper profile, it doesn't seem to matter what color space the file is, the prints come out fine(and identical between the different programs). There's a slight variation between prints from the 38'' and the 48'' but that's to be expected since I don't make my own profiles.

But I remember reading in this forum and others about about prints looking different when printing from LR and CS2/3/PSE and thought this might be why, since CS3 defaults to aRGB and LR uses ProPhoto. Also, since a lot of entry-level printers don't support a color-managed workflow, this could go a long way towards explaining why they can't get good prints from LR.

So can anyone duplicate this behavior? If I can get some verification, I'll write it up and send it to Epson.

Thanx,

 

[Microscopia]

Bill,

I think the answer to the problem is given in the LR Help file [setting resolution & colour management/set printer colour management - Paragraph 2].

The mismatch experienced is caused by the shifting of the out-of-gamut colours to reproducible ones. I think it says it all, by how it can also shift those that are already in-gamut, if there are a lot of out-of-gamut colours to be shifted to reproducible colours in the image file being sent to the printer.

My own reasoning is that there is no way round this problem, unless you have a printer which is capable of reproducing the LR ProPhoto colour space. Why Adobe chose this is beyond belief, especially as most printers and editing software operate with sRGB AdobeRGB CYMK etc..

The only way of at least minimizing the amount of colour shift is to print using the largest colour gamut available on the printer, which for most of us will be with AdobeRGB and the use of the perceptual and relative rendering tabs in the LR print box (which will mean selecting the better of two different prints)!!. The colour accuracy of the resulting print will differ for each and every print made, making it impossible to just make a selection and sticking with it!

Personally I cannot see the point of spending too much time and money customizing the display, colour management profiles etc. if at the end of the day LR changes it all when the image file is sent for printing!! I do not think that it would now be possible for Adobe LR to even consider using AdobeRGB colour space in their image processing engine as they have now gone too far down the road with the programme, any change which allowed a colour space conversion would still result in a shift of the colour gamut.
PS. There are some advantages in being colour blind!!!

 

[ClarkEE]

Same thing on my Epson, worse if anything. Blue more purple, yellow is murky green, and everything much darker. Like all my prints! Tried everything to lighten them up in develop, to no avail.
Tried to download new drivers, they did not pass windows logo testing, so i cancelled.
Any suggestions? or is it a new printer?

 

[billg71]

......My own reasoning is that there is no way round this problem, unless you have a printer which is capable of reproducing the LR ProPhoto colour space. Why Adobe chose this is beyond belief, especially as most printers and editing software operate with sRGB AdobeRGB CYMK etc..

Actually, there is a way around this problem and that's to print using a printer capable of color management. If ICC profiles are available for your printer/paper combination, LR applies those profiles and sends a file to the printer that the printer has no trouble reproducing. That's the whole point, to effectively translate a wide-gamut processing space by using appropriate profiles into as close an approximation of your image as a printer can physically output on a given paper.

LR was designed as a pro tool, as it's price indicates. The target customer base is the working pro or advanced amateur who has a need for a tool that combines asset management, global image processing and outputs for web, slideshow and print. Just like Photoshop, it's a tool designed to be used in a color-managed workflow. I doubt the designers ever considered the possibility of an end-user using the software to print from a non-color-managed printer.

As far as the choice of color space, I use ProPhoto in all my editing applications and, from what I read, so do most pros. Every book on color management I've read in the last year recommends the use of 16-bit ProPhoto as a processing space. If you shoot RAW, you're throwing out half or more of the color info the camera can capture by processing in aRGB. sRGB was designed to approximate the reproduction capabilities of the average CRT monitor in 1993. Even my old 22'' prints colors beyond the sRGB gamut, my el-cheapo monitor has a wider gamut, why should I limit my images to what a 15-year-old CRT can display?

My point in starting this discussion was to make others aware that MY Epson printer does NOT do a good job of translating the ProPhoto files from LR (or CS3) into a print and to see if others could confirm this behavior. I'm assuming this is a general problem with the Epson driver(and maybe HP and Canon as well), and that it would explain the problems members using non-color-managed workflows were having with their attempts at printing. I don't think I ever suggested this was a flaw in the processing programs, be they Capture NX, LR or CS3.

Clark,

As far as a suggestion, you can try Lawrence's idea to set the printer to Adobe RGB and play with the rendering intents. Another solution might be to just export the file as an sRGB jpeg at the highest quality setting and use the software bundled with the printer to print it. I doubt it's a problem with the driver that's been addressed, Epson probably doesn't expect customers who buy consumer printers to be sending them ProPhoto files......

As far as the "Windows Certified" driver is concerned, if you wait on a Certified version of every driver you use you'll always be a generation or two behind current technology. There's a big time lag between a manufacturer developing a new driver and Microsoft bestowing it's blessing on it. I doubt I have a "Certified" driver running in my computer and everything works fine.

HTH,

 

[ClarkEE]

How much do you have to spend on a printer to get Pro Photo?
Maybe i should just start saving up for a nice A3 Printer? Epson or Canon?

 

[Photo_op]

Bill- I ran the test using an Epson R24''. Software is in the signature below. "All" my photos are Pro Photo RGB. I have the latest 6.12 Leopard beta compatible drivers installed. "Managed by Printer" gives the results different from the target but also different from your result. However, when I use manage by LR with 3rd party profile (Spyder3Print) the colors are spot on, except for purplish tint to "B". I use the process described in post #17, from this thread-

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.3c'5eae6

That forum has several threads that explore the printing "issues" regarding Mac X 1.5.1 (Colorsync), LR 1.3.1 and Epson/Canon/HP printing. So far the work-around seems to be useful to Epson 18'', 24'' and 38''.

--Dave

 

[Microscopia]

Bill,

The point that I am trying to put over, is that irrespective of whether colour management is used or not, there will always be a colour shift from the recorded image to the final print, unless the camera profile matches the LR colour working space which in turn matches the printer profile. If any of these are different then there will be a colour shift from source to target. The extent of this shift will obviously be dependant upon the system being operated, but more importantly it will be different for each image recorded. In addition to the foregoing, the final output will also be affected by the state of the printer itself, its print head alignement, calibration and general health, the ink and the paper used. These all affect both professionals and amateurs alike. The only difference between the two is that professionals are more likely to be able to reduce the extent of the colour shift by purchasing more compatible and adaptable system components. However, even the expensive professional equipment is sometimes not what it appears. For example the 16-bit files which you refer to, which I agree provide better depth, are prone to conversion between the working space and the printer, even though some of these printers are advertised as handling 16-bit files, close inspection shows they actually convert 16-bit down to 12-bit - so yet another conversion in the chain!

Bill, you seemed horrified at the thought of using sRGB, so I have included the following link especially for you! http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/content/2''5/july/dh_color.shtml

I think colour and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so if you are happy with the output, be it on-screen or in-print, then stick with it, after all, even good old fashioned black & white prints, in my opinion are better than many of the overworked HDR prints with false overlays which are now flooding the market.

My answer to ClarkEE and any others who are concerned about the quality of the printer, is to read up some of the test results carried out by the popular camera magazines. See if any of those match their own requirements and budget. There is no one best printer out there!

 

[Svein]

I can't help but think that this is "another variant" of the problems mentioned in this thread: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/showthread.php?p=6673#post6673

This sounds like the same problem I've seen with Lightroom not liking CMYK colorspace ICC profiles. (adds too much ink/toner to each pixel, giving a darker image, and on some printers giving other saturation-related problems because different inks/toners have different subtractive effects from the blueish white of the paper).

Since it seems this forum now has a lot of different threads on printing problems from lightroom, maybe one of the forum administrators can start (or delegate the job) a thread collecting all we KNOW up to now, and add the frequent user-solvable problems to it.

//Svein