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Catalogs Choosing the right Catalog for LrC fresh installation

gideon.liberman

New Member
Premium Classic Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2025
Messages
12
Lightroom Version Number
14-1-1
Operating System
  1. Windows 11
I am using the regular catalog backup each time LrC exits and in addition I manually backup using ATL\Export Catalog to an external drive. The manual export is done with the Catalog\All Photograph & Build / Include Smart Previews.
Are there any differences between the above two Catalogs and can each one of them be used to fresh LrC installation to restart at the same point before its shutdown?
Will Sync system acknowledge each one of the above Catalogs as identical to the former one or should I have to delete Lightroom library and start Sync operation from square one?
 
Why would you use a backup catalog for a fresh install? The usual practice would be to copy the live catalog - which then definitely syncs with the Cloud (and no, don't delete the library)
 
@Paul - Thanks,
Clear, that is the first choice when you plan to upgrade your computer and can use the lightroom directory with all its files including the live catalog.
But how is the choice of the above two types of backups in case of a system or disk failure & catalog corruption?
 
Disk failure, then the direct copy. Catalog corruption - you'd need to go back and find a catalog without the corruption, of course (so more likely a backup one).

Sync can be an issue when going back to a backup, it tends to be something to look at each time.
 
I manually backup using ATL\Export Catalog to an external drive.
This is making a direct copy rather than Lightroom making a backup copy.

I believe Lightroom knows if you use a backup copy (as in one done by Lightroom) if you then sync it (there is a warning that states it's a different catalog).
 
Very peculiar methodology and also not a good one.

A catalog created with the "Export as catalog" command creates a new catalog with a new internal catalog ID, all the images get new internal image ID's, the "All Synced Photographs" special collection is empty, and none of your previously synced collections are marked as syncing. If one of these catalogs becomes the "sync catalog" at some point, LrC will NOT match ANY image in Lr/Cloud to ANY image in the backup catalog. This will result in ALL images in Lr/Cloud to be brought down to LrC AS NEW IMAGES probably duplicating images already in the BU catalog. If those images had originally come from LrC, then what is in LR/Cloud will only be an SP (Smart Preview) so that is what will be sent from LR/Cloud to LrC when that catalog is synced.

See Case #4 in my "Changing Which LrC Catalog Syncs with Lr/Cloud" article

What you want to do instead of "export as catalog" is, with LrC Closed, use Windows Explorer or some tool like GoodSync, or Carbon Copy Cloner to copy the folder containing your catalog as well as all your image files to your backup drive. While we're on the subject, you should also have a cloud based backup as well as a local backup.

Will Sync system acknowledge each one of the above Catalogs as identical to the former one or should I have to delete Lightroom library and start Sync operation from square one?
NO. SEE ABOVE
 
ATL\Export Catalog to an external drive
Apologies, I missed the fact you are exporting as a catalog. As Dan said, very bad idea from the point of view of syncing.

Do you actually think you have a corrupt catalog, then?
 
@Paul -thanks for clarifying, I am planning to roll back to the point just before reinstalling my OS.
What you want is an actual copy of the the .lrcat and .lrcat-data files from before reinstalling your OS. This can be the contents of the zip file created when LrC Exits or an OS level copy using Finder/Explorer. In fact, I suggest an OS level copy of all the catalog related files/folders from the folder containing the catalog (you can skip the preview folders if deisred).
 
@Califdan - as a new OS system is already installed, I lost the opportunity to copy the live catalog and its related files so I will have to use the backup copy right before the OS installation.
To fully understand the expected implications, I kindly ask for your review:
I do understand that I will have to import all the RAW files since the candidate backup date, develop those photos, export its JPG and deliver the JPG's to the appropriate collections.
Will the collections structure be maintained?
Will the Sync system consider this Backup candidate (40 days old & 31 new Backups since then) as a "Blood relative" that allow the new files to synchronise?
Are those files existing on the web or deleted to match the Candidate Catalog? if they continue to exist, will duplicates be created or overwrite will happen?
What to expect in the Albums Web Console?
 
I do understand that I will have to import all the RAW files since the candidate backup date, develop those photos, export its JPG and deliver the JPG's to the appropriate collections.
Answer depends on if these images were previously synced to LR/Cloud. Assuming they weren't then yes you'll have to re-import any images that had been imported since the backup was created.

I'm not clear what the "export its jpg's to the appropriate collections" is all about. There is no need to 'export' anything. Just drag the RAW file to the desired collections. Is there some reason you need the collection to contain a jpg rather than a RAW?

If those images imported after the BU was taken had been synced to the cloud we have to do things differently so let us know if that's the case.
Will the collections structure be maintained?
The collections as they were when the BU was taken will be present. Any added or who's content was changed after the BU was taken will not have those changes assuming the collection was not synced. If it was synced, again more considerations
Will the Sync system consider this Backup candidate (40 days old & 31 new Backups since then) as a "Blood relative" that allow the new files to synchronise?
Yes as long as it was created by LrC when exiting or was an OS level copy of the active catalog or one of the LrC created backups. However, even though it is a blood relative, considering that it is old and things have changed since it was created there are all sorts of nuances. Reverting to an 'older' catalog is covered in 'Changing Which LrC Catalog Syncs with Lr/Cloud" as case #3. and in 'Fixing problems casued when changing the sync catalog'
Are those files existing on the web or deleted to match the Candidate Catalog? if they continue to exist, will duplicates be created or overwrite will happen?
What to expect in the Albums Web Console?
There is no simple answer as there are a lot of factors that cause different results. These are all explained (as the best I could determine) in the articles I referenced above.
 
Answer depends on if these images were previously synced to LR/Cloud. Assuming they weren't then yes you'll have to re-import any images that had been imported since the backup was created.
those images were synced to the cloud after this Candidate BU was taken, and further BU were created each time LrC exits.
I'm not clear what the "export its jpg's to the appropriate collections" is all about. There is no need to 'export' anything. Just drag the RAW file to the desired collections. Is there some reason you need the collection to contain a jpg rather than a RAW?
apology, I used wrong term. OfCourse I am dragging JPG to collections.
I prefer to use JPG as the source for Collections as this is the final result of all the different develop operations &
exporting to JPG has additional sharpening &
additional develop like Noise Reduction and Nik Collection are huge files and after exporting to JPG I delete them and remain with Collection synced to Adobe cloud and DNG & JPG synced to OneDrive.

The collections as they were when the BU was taken will be present. Any added or who's content was changed after the BU was taken will not have those changes assuming the collection was not synced. If it was synced, again more considerations
all the collection are sync to Adobe Cloud.
it's clear that the latest photos after the Candidate BU was taken, will have to be added.

Yes as long as it was created by LrC when exiting or was an OS level copy of the active catalog or one of the LrC created backups. However, even though it is a blood relative, considering that it is old and things have changed since it was created there are all sorts of nuances. Reverting to an 'older' catalog is covered in 'Changing Which LrC Catalog Syncs with Lr/Cloud" as case #3. and in 'Fixing problems casued when changing the sync catalog'
this Backup Candidate was created as LrC exit.

These are all explained (as the best I could determine) in the articles I referenced above
I am still at the learning curve, thanks a lot for your contribution and sharing.
 
apology, I used wrong term. OfCourse I am dragging JPG to collections.
I prefer to use JPG as the source for Collections as this is the final result of all the different develop operations &
exporting to JPG has additional sharpening &
additional develop like Noise Reduction and Nik Collection are huge files and after exporting to JPG I delete them and remain with Collection synced to Adobe cloud and DNG & JPG synced to OneDrive.
I still don't get it. Did you originally import RAW + JPG as seperate entries in LrC for the same image and then did you editing, noise redution, etc. on the JPG? Doesn't make sense to me.

But this is a minor suptopic. Your main concern is (should be) reverting to an older LrC Backup catalog and making it the sync catalog.

all the collection are sync to Adobe Cloud.
it's clear that the latest photos after the Candidate BU was taken, will have to be added.
As documented in the Articles I referred you to, If an image was in a synced collection at the time the BU was created but subsequently edited in either LR or LrC and then you revert to the BU catalog the state of the image from the BU will initially be present but then the sync process will update it with the state of the image in the cloud (i.e. the 'subsequent' updates done after the BU was taken are applied to the image in LrC).

SPECIAL ATTENTION needs to be paid to situations where you deleted/removed synced images after the BU was taken as well situations where new images were imported and synced after the BU was taken. These can cause all sorts of un-expected results but are not the only situations that can result in surprising or un-desired results. Read the articles I provided links to as they detail all the situations I could think of and there is too much info to repeat in forum posts. If something in my articles is un-clear or needs further information, please post a question here.

I'm sorry, but this is a complicated area and any quick answers will probably be insufficient and possibly misleading which is why I wrote those articles. You need to take the time to read and understand what will happen and possibly how to take preventative actions before hand to minimize the collateral damage. In this area "trust to luck" or "hope for the best" has a tendency to not turn out well. Sometimes nagative results are unavoidable but it's best to know what to expect before you take the leap.
 
I still don't get it. Did you originally import RAW + JPG as seperate entries in LrC for the same image and then did you editing, noise redution, etc. on the JPG? Doesn't make sense to me.
I am a 100% RAW shooter. the JPG is created at the end of all the Develop process.
(developing a JPG will degrade its quality).
Do you see any cons using the exported JPG (as an outcome of all the develop process) as the source for Collection instead of the RAW file?
As documented in the Articles I referred you to, If an image was in a synced collection at the time the BU was created but subsequently edited in either LR or LrC and then you revert to the BU catalog the state of the image from the BU will initially be present but then the sync process will update it with the state of the image in the cloud (i.e. the 'subsequent' updates done after the BU was taken are applied to the image in LrC).
these are good news.

SPECIAL ATTENTION needs to be paid to situations where you deleted/removed synced images after the BU was taken as well situations where new images were imported and synced after the BU was taken. These can cause all sorts of un-expected results but are not the only situations that can result in surprising or un-desired results. Read the articles I provided links to as they detail all the situations I could think of and there is too much info to repeat in forum posts. If something in my articles is un-clear or needs further information, please post a question here.
that is the point and the root cause to develop problems, but this will be the common case when rolling back a BU, otherwise why are we backing up?
I'm sorry, but this is a complicated area and any quick answers will probably be insufficient and possibly misleading which is why I wrote those articles. You need to take the time to read and understand what will happen and possibly how to take preventative actions before hand to minimize the collateral damage. In this area "trust to luck" or "hope for the best" has a tendency to not turn out well. Sometimes nagative results are unavoidable but it's best to know what to expect before you take the leap.
I appreciate your professionalism and honesty.
Now I understand that this system has its own personality, and its behavior depends on a specific course of action thus, not everything can be predicted.

"A smart man would not enter a situation which a clever one knows how to get out of it"
 
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I am a 100% RAW shooter. the JPG is created at the end of all the Develop process.
(developing a JPG will degrade its quality).
Do you see any cons using the exported JPG (as an outcome of all the develop process) as the source for Collection instead of the RAW file?
If I understand you, your process is:
  1. shot RAW
  2. Import RAW to LrC
  3. Edit in LrC
  4. Export images as JPG's
  5. Import Jpg's
  6. Put Jpg's into collection
There is no technical problem with what you are doing other than losing quality in the JPG's and wasting disk space. What I don't understand is why you want to keep Jpg copies of your RAW images at all, let alone in LrC. Why not just put the RAW's in the collections after step 3? If you want to lock in the state of the image at that point in time then make a VC of the RAW and put that in the collection.
 
Why not just put the RAW's in the collections after step 3?
Derivative JPEGs (TIFFS DNGs etc.) are for special purpose applications like "send copies to a friend", social webs sites etc. You do not need a JPEG locally since you are able to create one on demand any time you need a derivative. Lightroom Classic stores the edit instructions in the catalog file and has a reference path to the original (RAW) file any thing else is wasted disk space.
 
  1. shot RAW
  2. Import RAW to LrC
  3. Edit in LrC
  4. Export images as JPG's
  5. Import Jpg's
  6. Put Jpg's into collection
correct except step 5, no need to import JPG as we have the option to "add to this Catalog" as part of the "Export to file\Export location".
in step 2 I also convert it to DNG format, no side car (XMP), better compression, less tendency to file corruption.
Derivative JPEGs (TIFFS DNGs etc.) are for special purpose applications like "send copies to a friend", social webs sites etc. You do not need a JPEG locally since you are able to create one on demand any time you need a derivative. Lightroom Classic stores the edit instructions in the catalog file and has a reference path to the original (RAW) file any thing else is wasted disk space.
absolutely correct, these days we are fortunate to have the possibility to distributes a link to our album (Collection) instead of loading the network with JPG.
Still, I find it convenient to also use JPG because the following reasons:
  1. A second line of defence - backing up the JPG to OneDrive
  2. Using it as a screen saver slideshow
  3. Matching screen resolution by resizing to screen dimensions
  4. Adjusting Sharpening for screen
 
I'm sorry, but this is a complicated area and any quick answers will probably be insufficient and possibly misleading which is why I wrote those articles. You need to take the time to read and understand what will happen and possibly how to take preventative actions before hand to minimize the collateral damage. In this area "trust to luck" or "hope for the best" has a tendency to not turn out well. Sometimes nagative results are unavoidable but it's best to know what to expect before you take the leap.
Referring once more to the restoration process which I now more carful before commencing.
After the mistakes inherited, I would like to recheck my working Catalog.
Can you please indicate the tests suggested to verify that the Catalog is functioning correctly, holds the updated information and match the web database.
 
  1. A second line of defence - backing up the JPG to OneDrive
  2. Using it as a screen saver slideshow
  3. Matching screen resolution by resizing to screen dimensions
  4. Adjusting Sharpening for screen
  1. Your first line of defense should be a system backup app (preferably two with one being a cloud based backup (BackBlaze, CrashPlan etc.) for catastrophic losses like fire , flood pestilence etc. ) This backs up your catalog file and your original image files. With a working catalog file and your original image files you really don't need anything else for Lightroom Classic.
  2. A local slide show is one of those "special purpose applications" that I mentioned previously. It will be a subset of your image inventory not every image in your inventory.
  3. & 4. These are export processes and would only be applied to just those special purpose images. I have a large scree 4K HDTV. I display my work as a slideshow there and export a collection to a thumb drive for use by my Smart TV. I don't keep or need these JPEGs on my computer.
The point I wish to make is that your workflow could be streamlined with more time spent organizing your inventory in LrC and editing your image and not wasting effort making exports that are not going to be used elsewhere. Somewhere you mention that your collections contain only exported JPEGs. A collection of originals is a group that refers back to the original and includes the latest adjustments to those originals. A JPEG is going to be a first order lossy copy. And any export of that collection will be a second order lossy copy.

As a rule, I do not export lossy JPEGs preferring instead to export lossless DNGs or TIFFs. If my target destination requires a JPEG, then I will create a lossy JPEG for that target destination.
 
Can you please indicate the tests suggested to verify that the Catalog is functioning correctly.....
There is no real integrity check tool readily available to common users beyond the checkbox on the backup dialog when you exit and that is a pretty light integrity check. So what's left is just to poke around and see if things look OK. One thing is to "find all missing photos" and then get those straightened out. Then visually check to see if your collections seem to contain what they should, that the counts of images having various keywords looks about right in the KW list panel. That data doesn't seem to be missing in the metadata panel, Etc.

....and match the web database.
Spot check what's in LrC vs What's in LR/Cloud and try a simple edit and see if it syncs OK both ways.

Unless you are seeing problems or error messages pop up, things are probably OK, but you know your data (images) better than anyone so should be able to detect if something is amiss.

And, as previously mentioned.
  1. Set your preferences to give you the Backup dialog EVERY TIME LIGHTROOM EXITS. Then actually let it do the backup at the end of the day on any day you made any changes.
  2. Have those LrC generated backups go to a different drive than where the catalog is
  3. Backup the entire folder containing the catalog as well as all your images to a local hard drive other than the one they are on
  4. Get a cloud based REAL backup tool such as BackBlaze, or CrashPlan for cloud backup. Assure you configure it to include the folder containing your cataqlog and all your images. But, as long as you've invested in the tool, may as well have it backup ALL your personal data. Thenjust let it hum away in the background.
  5. Once or twice a year verify that recently modified or created files are indeed present on both your local and cloud backups. Actually restore them (don't overly your master, rather restore them to a different folder) and make sure that they can be opened and utilized.
  6. Keep your LrC generated backups on a schedule. Keep all from the last 60 days. Keep 1 per month for the 12 months prior to that, then keep one a quarter or one per year for ones older than that.
 
There is no real integrity check tool readily available to common users beyond the checkbox on the backup dialog when you exit and that is a pretty light integrity check. So what's left is just to poke around and see if things look OK. One thing is to "find all missing photos" and then get those straightened out. Then visually check to see if your collections seem to contain what they should, that the counts of images having various keywords looks about right in the KW list panel. That data doesn't seem to be missing in the metadata panel, Etc.
will check and revert.
Get a cloud based REAL backup tool such as BackBlaze, or CrashPlan for cloud backup. Assure you configure it to include the folder containing your cataqlog and all your images. But, as long as you've invested in the tool, may as well have it backup ALL your personal data. Thenjust let it hum away in the background.
all the recommended points are addressed except point 4 that should be improved.

is the versioning limitation of 1 year is enough?
is the additional cost of Backblaze is justified?
Backbalze does not backup application folder, my catalog is on default location C:\user\pictures, LrC Set Up is on default location C:\user\AppData\Romming\Adobe & Data is on disk D - can the software take care on those deferent locations?
which of the 2-backup software fit better for this purpose?
 
I display my work as a slideshow there and export a collection to a thumb drive
let me iterate for your comments,
you create the collection by dragging the final updated DNG file.
referring to collection EXPORT - do you use the Adobe Web Console on the 4K TV to view the Albums or, create a sharable link with Adobe Web Console to use in the 4K TV?
A collection of originals is a group that refers back to the original and includes the latest adjustments to those originals
that is well understood,
As I develop DNG files which remain in the catalog, I further develop the DNG files to with LrC to reduce noise and/or increase clarity with Nik Collection, the 2 later TIF files will be deleted as they are huge.
Is it suggested to create a VC from the final developing process, drag the VC to the collection and only then delete the TIF files (the original developed DNG file remain)?
As a rule, I do not export lossy JPEGs preferring instead to export lossless DNGs or TIFFs.
What are the uses of DNG and TIFF files?
These files are huge, is it not difficult to distribute them?
 
let me iterate for your comments,
you create the collection by dragging the final updated DNG file.
referring to collection EXPORT - do you use the Adobe Web Console on the 4K TV to view the Albums or, create a sharable link with Adobe Web Console to use in the 4K TV?
I don't know what the Adobe Web Console is, A Google search yielded no results. I have a 77" LG Smart TV. It has a slide show app for displaying photos. I have not found a better way to get my images to the LG Smart TV than using a thumb drive. I have also used Amazon Photos but it does not update well.

I have a HardDrive Publish Service that publishes directly to the thumb drive.
that is well understood,
As I develop DNG files which remain in the catalog, I further develop the DNG files to with LrC to reduce noise and/or increase clarity with Nik Collection, the 2 later TIF files will be deleted as they are huge.
Is it suggested to create a VC from the final developing process, drag the VC to the collection and only then delete the TIF files (the original developed DNG file remain)?
I only use VCs for different develop paths for the same image. e.g. In on copy a create a VC that is cropped 16:9 for the smart TV and another vc might be cropped suitable for print and a third copy might be developed as B&W. If I have a collection for Smart TV, the 16:9 image goes in that collection. Another collection might be Images that get printed and this collection might include both the portrait crop and the B&W copy. The master copy might be any one of the three scenarios that I just described or other scenarios with different develop parameters for that image There is no difference between a Master copy and what Adobe calls a Virtual copy. Each one represents a unique develop history and refer back to the original imported image file. You can promote a virtual copy to become the master and when you do the master copy gets a virtual copy designation
What are the uses of DNG and TIFF files?
These files are huge, is it not difficult to distribute them?
DNG files are a type of TIFF file They can be created as a losslessly compressed 16 bit RGB file. They are no more difficult to distribute that a movie file You use them anytime you want preserve the original quality and color of your image. I think you need to reverse your thinking. JPEGs are tiny and represent a poor approximation of the original. Compressed TIFFs are a "standard" size. Further editing of the JPEG results in still lower quality image. Lossless compressed TIFFs provide a full repeatable representation of the original edited image. JPEGs were invented to solve a problem of sending image data quickly across vast distances in space by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory some 35+ years ago. As display image quality improves and data transmission speeds increase, the JPEG format is less and less important. I only create a JPEG when my target destination can't accept any other format.
 
is the versioning limitation of 1 year is enough?
Yes. If you include your LrC Catalog backups in the set of folders going to BackBlaze, it will keep the back up of those catalog backups forever. This is a bit weird to think about but the BB "versioning" means that you can go back to the state of the file as it was up to 1 year ago. It doesn't mean the files older than than that go away just that you can't see what they looked like more than a year ago. But, as the LrC catalog backups should never change what they looked like 10 years ago is the same as what they looked like 1 year ago - so no problem.
is the additional cost of Backblaze is justified?
I think it is but it all depends on your finanancial situation. Unlimited data for under $100/yr. Worth it's weight in gold. What is that now - a dozen eggs?
Really - what is your time worth to have to redo everything you've ever done in LrC if a disaster hits? Even if you never recover anything from BB for 10 years then you're house burns to the ground. What is $1000 for 10 years of BB compared to lossing a lifetime of photogaphs of your family?
Backbalze does not backup application folder, my catalog is on default location C:\user\pictures, LrC Set Up is on default location C:\user\AppData\Romming\Adobe & Data is on disk D - can the software take care on those deferent locations?
By default BB grabs everything specific to you on your computer. It does not grab stuff that comes with applications which you could just go to the venders website and re-download. So, for example, it does not copy the LrC application code. It does copy everything under your user ID from your boot drive. C:\userid\pictures is copied. You may need to tell BB to include disk "D" and if your images are on some other drive you should tell it to backup that drive as well. There is no need to tell it to back up your local backup drvie. I have BB backing up my C, P, and S drives
which of the 2-backup software fit better for this purpose?
Both about the same. work essentailly the same way but some different features.

BackBlaze will overnight FedEx you a disk drive of up to 8tb containing your data as of a specific date to use for recovering a failed or lost disk drive. They charge $280 for this service but if you return the drive to them within 30 days (free shipping both ways) they refund the full amount. Downloading your data over the internet is free.

Crash plan used to ship you a disk for initial data loading if desired (rather than weeks of uploading through the Internet but they don't seem to do that anymore. But CP offeres unlimited versioning rather then the 1 year BB limits it so.

I'm sure there are other differences as well.

Both have unlimited data plans. Both have good customer service.

Hope that helps
 
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