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Caption / Description Metadata Fields

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Industry standards require that Title, Caption, and Copyright be stored in three locations
JohnRellis, where have you found these standards. The multiple metadata schemas used in images are a mess. See Problems with current Metadata Standards. There is/was a Metadata Working Group trying to sort this out. See MWG Tags.

The bug is likely the non preservation of metadata when sharing images between Adobe products. Given where Adobe is with cloud products, it is likely this issue exists with other Adobe products besides PS and LR Classic
 
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@Paul_DS256 ,

To access more than you may want to know about photo metadata check out the PhotoMetadata.org site.

On the resources in META Resources -> Links & Resources Guide you can find links to all the relevant specifications including the most recent guidelines IPTC-PhotoMetadata. This document spells out all possible photo metadata where it is defined and how it in intended to be used.

Most popular software including Adobe follow these guidelines, mostly.

-louie
 
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Most popular software including Adobe follow these guidelines, mostly.
Thanks for the link LouieSherwin. Very useful. Similar information to the sites I provided.

I have a EXIFTOOL batch job I use to load basic metadata into my images before I IMPORT them to LR. A practice I started before using LR. In there, I found I had to assign the same attribute to different tag fields in different schemas similar to the alignment in MWG Tags.

I'm still trying to sort out what Microsoft uses when it displays metadata in Explorer.

My point was to JohnRellis's point of "Industry standards require that Title, Caption, and Copyright be stored in three locations". As far as I know, there is no standard that requires that and as you indicated, it's left to the different software vendors to decide.
 
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JohnRellis, where have you found these standards. ... There is/was a Metadata Working Group trying to sort this out.
The Metadata Working Group was founded by Apple, Adobe, Canon, Microsoft, Nokia, and Sony. In 2010 they published Guidelines for Handling Image Metadata, Version 2.0. Though called "guidelines", the document is written as a specification, with very precise language and rules, and the MWG published an accompanying verification test set of files. Adobe committed to the spec starting with LR 3.4 and Camera Raw 6.4. The MWG web site has been down for a while, but here's a copy of Guidelines 2.0.

One of the primary goals was to tell applications how to handle the overlapping metadata specifications in EXIF, IPTC, and XMP. Section 4.2 provides detailed rules:
1580920802428.png


One of the general principles is that if a field (e.g. caption) exists in multiple metadata sections (EXIF, XMP, IPTC), when an app changes the field, it should update all the occurrences. So if an app updates EXIF:ImageDescription, it should also update XMP: Description and IPTC:Caption.

Exiftool implements the MWG spec with its MWG Tags.
 
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The bug is likely the non preservation of metadata when sharing images between Adobe products.
In detail, the LR bug is that Metadata > Save To File doesn't properly update IPTC:Caption-Abstract when it clears EXIF:ImageDescription and XMP: Description. When you do Edit In > Edit In Adobe Photoshop > Edit Original, LR does an implicit Save To File (so that Photoshop will see the current metadata from the LR catalog).
 
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Adobe committed to the spec starting with LR 3.4 and Camera Raw 6.4.
I for one would love to see these more broadly adapted but given the silence of the working group, I wonder if it's dead.

I did some Googling and found this Photo Metadata Archives - IPTC. From reading it, I can't tell if the IPTC org has taken over what the working group was working on.

I would say Adobe was compliant in LR 3.4 but writing the metadata to the image file or XMP sidecar depending on the type of file. The issue comes in exchanging files and the metadata correctly with other Adobe products and 3rd party tools.
 
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Save To File doesn't properly update IPTC:Caption-Abstract
Understood. I haven't tested this to a RAW file or other file. This will dictate whether the information is stored in the XMP or image itself.

Unfortunately, I had a major Windows 10 failure and am in the processing of reinstalling the OS so I can't try and illustrate.
 
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From reading it, I can't tell if the IPTC org has taken over what the working group was working on.
I hadn't visited iptc.org for a while, so I spent some time there and searching within the site via Google and it appears that the IPTC's Photo Metadata Working Group has nothing to do with the Metadata Working Group organization consisting of Adobe, Microsoft, et al. The IPTC standards describe how to reconcile IPTC fields stored in XMP with those stored in the legacy IIM. (That reconciliation predates the MWG Guidelines.) But I couldn't find anything at IPTC.org that describes how to reconcile EXIF with XMP and IIM, which is a primary focus of the MWG Guidelines.

IPTC 2019.1 adds Image Regions, polygonal boundaries overlaid on the image that contain associated metadata, such as Person Shown. This appears to be similar in functionality to the Regions specified in MWG Guidelines 2.0, but unfortunately all the details are different. LR and a few other programs (e.g. Picasa) have long implemented the regions in MWG Guidelines for face tagging. I don't know why IPTC chose not to build upon that, rather than doing something much different syntactically.
 

PhilBurton

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Done, and yes the steps that have been outlined in the case are accurate. thank you for doing that John!! I'm glad that someone else was able to verify and submit.

Guess we need to get some more people to do the ME TOO to have it looked at.

Thanks,
Kevin
"And while Adobe consider this to be the correct handling of that scenario" . I would really love some context on that statement.
Rikk,

Maybe not context, but perspective. The current Adobe approach defies common sense.

If we agree with Occam's Razer, we would have only one metadata standard, but that's not the world we have right now. Since we do have multiple standards, the very least we can expect is that equivalent data fields have the same value or contents.
 
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There are two separate issues interleaved here. Rikk isn't contesting Kevin Sholder's bug with Save Metadata To File not clearing IPTC fields. Rather, he's asking Gnits to elaborate on his opinion (see here) that LR should automatically read the metadata of a file into the catalog when the file's metadata gets changed.
 

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Good point. I still maintain that in the "spirit" of the Publish service, which automatically recreates images with newly applied edits, that approach should carry over to the metadata. Frankly I'm gobsmacked that Adobe believes otherwise, since this situation is not consistent with the overall Publish approach.

Metadata technical standards are very complex, particularly so because there are multiple standards that are only partially "harmonized," to use a favorite word of standards bodies. I'm sure that only a minority of Forum members are capable of understanding these issues, nor should the be. Adobe needs to acknowledge that they will fix this issue.

Part of the reason that I may Adobe every single month for Lightroom is that I expect Adobe to manage all this technical complexity for me, just as they manage all the issues around Nikon's ever changing NEF format, or color management.
 

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"And while Adobe consider this to be the correct handling of that scenario" . I would really love some context on that statement.
Rikk, delighted to see you on this discussion.

It was a long time ago. I will try to dig up any posts or communications related to this. Busy for the rest of the day, but will try tonight. I am not trying to bring up old issues, but I do consider this to be a major flaw in metadata handling. By right, if overwriting an image exported from Lightroom and selecting to include the exported image in the catalog, then Lightroom should initialise the metadata fields as it would for a new exported image and then populate with the metadata from the parent raw file. I am recreating this process manually by deleting the original exported jpg from the catalog, forcing Lightroom to execute a new record subroutine.
 

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Here is my bug report from 6 years ago.


I will try to find any further correspondence, now that I have a reference date.
 
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Here is my bug report from 6 years ago.


I will try to find any further correspondence, now that I have a reference date.
Thanks. I am glad to see I wasn't on the thread and identified as the culprit ;) That post is pretty ancient and didn't have a lot of Me-Toos so I am not surprised it is lost in the shuffle. Interesting aside- that was my 3rd day at Adobe although I was working on the Spark Team at the time and didn't get into Lightroom support (officially) for several months after.

If you wouldn't mind - go to that thread and post a new update saying 'Darn it, it is 6 years hence and still not working' . Include a brief step by step for reproducing. Feel free to link back to this thread. Once you do that, I will write a bug and get it cross referenced.
 

Gnits

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Rikk, Will do later to-day.

BTW..... I have (and always had) the highest regard for you and the work that you do.

I never tried to blame anyone and not doing that now. I have run very large IT departments and projects and know how complex delivering real world solutions can be. I also notice in recent times a lot of under the counter improvements have been made by Adobe in both Lightroom and Photoshop. I applaud these developments. Many of the Photoshop subtle improvements were real 'gottchas' for people trying to learn Photoshop as they were user interface howlers.

I joined this conversation because I recognised that the original posters issues shared many of the characteristics of my experience dealing with an integrated workflow making using of metadata such as Title and Caption.
 

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