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Caption / Description Metadata Fields

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I think that I've discovered what I consider a problem with these fields metadata fields within Lightroom / Photoshop. Let me preface this is the way I have my Lightroom options configured as below:

1580649880422.png


I've thought in the past the the "Automatically write changes into XMP within Lightroom "really does" write all changes into XMP fields.

I've recently found that this isn't always the case and am looking for someone else to validate this. The problem, when the "Caption" field has data in it all is fine. When the same image is opened within Photoshop the same data is present in the "Description" field. As shown below:

Lightroom Data

1580650177789.png


Photoshop Data

1580650296965.png


If I then delete the data from the "Caption" field within Lightroom, it is supposed to write that change to the file based on my understanding of the options above:

1580650497337.png


However when opening in Photoshop, the data is still there.

1580650615180.png


I can open this within Photoshop either inside of Lightroom or outside of Lightroom with the same results. There has been no development done on this image as it is purely an image that was exported from the master.

1580650830998.png


1580650853909.png


No comes the interesting part. If I CHANGE the data in the "Caption" field within Lightroom as such:

1580650956577.png


It shows the same data within Photoshop:

1580651024710.png


From what I've seen, if I totally remove the data from the "Caption" field within Lightroom, it DOES NOT remove the same data from the file, only from the display within Lightroom, because when the file is opened, the original data is still there. But when the data is CHANGED, it DOES update the data correctly in the "Description" field that is seen by Photoshop and other external applications that read XMP data.

Please let me know your thoughts and if someone is also able to replicate this issue.

Thanks and sorry for the long post,
Kevin
 
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Not to add to the craziness of metadata fields, but have you manually looked at what are in the image fields themselves? Forget about the XMP.
 
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Not to add to the craziness of metadata fields, but have you manually looked at what are in the image fields themselves? Forget about the XMP.
That is what he is doing already. You cannot open an XMP file in Photoshop, and if you send a raw file to Photoshop you do not get the 'Edit Original' choice.
 
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I had to continue this as an additional reply for some reason.

I ask because when you move the image from LR to PS it may be taking the content of the XMP and writing it to the image file pasted and that's where it will stay and be shown in PS. When you come back from PS to LR it will not automatically move back to the XMP I suspect unless you sync.

To see all the metadata in a file (not what MAC or Windows shows) using a utility like EXIFTOOL. Attached is an example of running "exiftool -a 20170210_085729.ORF > all_tags.txt" on Windows 10.

The titles of fields shown are not always that of the tag name of the various metadata schemas (EXIF, IPTC, Camera Manufacturer etc).
 

Attachments

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Not to add to the craziness of metadata fields, but have you manually looked at what are in the image fields themselves? Forget about the XMP.
Paul, as far as using an external tool such as you show in the example of EXIFTOOL, that answer would be no. If you right-click on the file in Windows and go to Properties -> Details tab it also shows the "Description" / "Caption" field, only it's shown as "Subject."

1580665946481.png


So yes, the data only changes when it is either deleted in Photoshop or changed in Lightroom. If it is deleted within Lightroom it shows being removed.

Lightroom removed:

1580666313871.png


File Properties removed:

1580666358944.png


Photoshop, shows it still present even after exiting Lightroom so all changes should have been completed to the file prior to exit as shown above by the actual file properties.

1580666415233.png


But Photoshop still has it there. That is rather odd isn't it.

Kevin
 
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Paul,

It looks like the EXIFTOOL also shows that the data is still present in the field:

1580667418286.png


Even though the field was "cleared" within Lightroom, it did not totally clear it.

I wonder how many other fields that have been "cleared" actually still have data in them. That's scary.

In any case, I would have expected that Lightroom and Photoshop to be in the same playing field together, but apparently not. At least from what I am seeing.

Within Lightroom, you have to change the data in that field, not simply delete it. If it is only deleted, it is still there, just not within Lightroom, but other application see it.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
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A long shot, but what happens if you write the metadata to the file manually (Ctrl-S) as opposed to automatically write?
 
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A long shot, but what happens if you write the metadata to the file manually (Ctrl-S) as opposed to automatically write?
Victoria, I'm sorry, I don't follow. I'm trying to remove the data from the "Caption" field so that there is nothing there, blank or empty field. It shows empty or blank in Lightroom, but if you open the file and look at the file info within Photoshop, the data is still there.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
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Yep. What I'm wondering is whether the removal isn't triggering the automatically write to xmp (to remove it) but whether a forced save might.
 
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That's what I thought Kevin. I couldn't replicate your steps with a RAW file. The choice for what do to with the image in PS from LR did not appear for me. When I checked, you don't get that choice with RAW. See this article.

If you check out this article you will see

"To avoid file corruption, XMP metadata is stored in a separate file called a sidecar file. For all other file formats supported by Lightroom Classic (JPEG, TIFF, PSD, and DNG), XMP metadata is written into the files in the location specified for that data. "​
So, you are not writing to the XMP when you set/clear caption. The changes are written directly to the JPG.

So, first recommendation is to to start using RAW files for your processing.
 
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So, first recommendation is to to start using RAW files for your processing.
Paul, in this case the files are of an over-sized document that was scanned as multiple TIF files and then combined with Photoshop into a single file. Then imported into Lightroom and metadata added after import into Lightroom. After the metadata is added, I would export them as JPGs and make some changes to the metadata. Which is where I wanted to "blank" a field and in Lightroom, it looks likes it was done, but when looking at the file info with Photoshop, the data is still there. Which is the rub. Off to try the (Ctrl-S ) to see if that changes anything.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
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A long shot, but what happens if you write the metadata to the file manually (Ctrl-S) as opposed to automatically write?
Victoria,

I removed the data from the "Caption" field within Lightroom and did the (Ctrl-S) and saw the dialog at the top of Lightroom saving the file. This is what Lightroom shows:

1580740310981.png


And this is what Photoshop shows, data still present:

1580740360503.png


So next I thought, OK, why not "Read" the metadata from the file and see if it pops back into the Caption Field.

1580740439373.png


This did not change the data shown in Lightroom. So I thought OK, I'll do the "Save" the metadata, again no change. The metadata is still there in Photoshop, but not showing in Lightroom.

Thanks,
Kevin
 
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Kevin, what are you doing in LR after photoshop. Sounds like it may be simpler to just stay in PS.
Once the images are exported as JPGs, they are copied out and used by a third party program to create my genealogy site. This application reads data directly from the EXIF / IPTC data. Then I remove / delete the JPG files from Lightroom as I only need the master TIF files since the JPGs reside in a non-Lightroom folder somewhere else on my hard drive. Paul, if you're interested: SCHOLDERER Surname Study; Home

That however is not the issue. The issue is simply that the fields don't update within Photoshop as they should from Lightroom, the data remains in the file that Photoshop can read, but Lightroom says that the field is blank. Each application should respect the change, when in fact only Lightoom is respecting the change and Photoshop still sees the data as being there. I've exported the files in question multiple times as well with different export options to JPG and metadata trying to get each application to see the same thing and they are not.

Thanks,
Kevin
 

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Efficient use of Title and Caption fields is a topic very close to my heart and critical for my efficient workflow. I will relate the story below, just in case it has any relevance to this scenario.

In earlier versions of Lightroom I reported bugs associated with the handling of metadata on images exported. I found I could not completely trust the metadata such as Title and Caption after I had exported from say a raw to a jpg. Everything works to my satisfaction if I complete a normal cycle (ie import raw, edit, apply metadata and then export as jpg. At this point in time, all metadata is in sync in all places (ie catalog, xml if exists and within the exported jpg).

Later, I may discover I need to edit some of the metadata (typo, new info, etc). No problem. Edit the metadata in the raw file and export the jpg image, overwriting the existing jpg. In most cases I add exported images to my catalog. If I check the metadata in the jpg file (say using a third party tool) or if I check the metadata fields in the exported jpg file using Lightroom library view of metadata, I often found that my metadata did not reflect the edits I had just completed. Very, very, very frustrating.

I reported this as a bug and put considerable effort (at the time) into trying to get this bug fixed.

Several people told me at the time that this was not a bug, but normal behaviour. After a while, I gave up trying to convince people (incl Adobe) this was a bug.

My workaround is relatively simple (for my use scenario). Step 1. Re-Edit metadata in my raw file as required. Step 2. Delete the previously exported jpg daughter from the catalog and the disk. Step 3. Re-export from raw to jpg. Again, at this stage all my metadata is in synch. (ie Catalog of raw, catalog of exported jpg and metadata inside the jpg.

I suspect that if a return trip to Photoshop is included in the workflow (eg import raw, apply metadata, edit in photoshop, export as jpg) then my problem above becomes even more amplified as the Photoshop file also has to be kept in synch.
Apologies if this story is not relevant, but I hope it might provide a useful insight into this problem. Finally, I have not checked if my bug scenario was ever fixed, as I have stuck with my tried and trusted workflow. (Admin ... please delete my message directly above..... posted in error).
 
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Gnits, thank you for the additional insight, seems as though metadata has been a struggle in some fashion or other for a long time. My problem just cropped up because I've finally taken the plunge to manage all of my genealogy exhibits within Lightroom. Down side is most are scans of documents or pictures. Not many RAW images of any kind as some of the scan are as old as 1995 scanned at Kinko's with Photoshop v3, so pretty old stuff but still works as they were all scanned as TIF files even back then. Just not the color space or bit depth, mostly gray-scale.

Thanks again,
Kevin
 

Gnits

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I just did a test using a raw file as main image.
Applied metadata.
1580813250809.png


Exported as jpg. Everything ok with exported metadata jpg in file and catalog.

Next I edit the metadata in the original raw image.

1580813384204.png


After exporting to jpg and overwriting previous.
The metadata inside the jpg is correct ....

1580813464788.png


But the corresponding metadata for the jpg in the catalog does not reflect the metadata edits.


1580813653986.png


I was informed this is not a bug.
 
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That looks like a bug to me. Where’s the bug thread? Someone may have misunderstood.
 

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That looks like a bug to me. Where’s the bug thread? Someone may have misunderstood.
Agree. It's reasonable to expect that metadata, either embedded or in an XMP sidecar, will be the same for all file formats. That's just common sense. it's a bug. If it is not considered to be a bug, then it's extremely poor design.
 
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Kevin's symptoms are indeed a bug. See here for the bug report I just filed:

Industry standards require that Title, Caption, and Copyright be stored in three locations each: EXIF, XMP, and IPTC. When you clear those fields and do Metadata > Save Metadata To File (or Edit In Photoshop), LR is saving the cleared fields to EXIF and XMP but not to IPTC.

Please add your constructive opinion to the bug report, and be sure to click Me Too and Follow in the upper-right corner. That will make it a little more likely Adobe will prioritize a fix, and you'll be notified when the bug's status changes.
 
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Gnits, to test my understanding, here are the steps you're taking:

1. Change the caption of raw photo A.ARW to X.

2. Export A.ARW to A.JPG.

3. Import A.JPG into the catalog.

4. Change the caption of A.ARW to Y.

5. Export A.ARW to A.JPG, overwriting the previous version.

6. Observe in LR that A.JPG still has caption X, not Y.

Is my understanding of the steps correct? If so, this is expected behavior. If you change the metadata in a file that's already imported into LR (e.g. using an external app or by overwriting the file on export), LR won't automatically re-read that metadata into the catalog. You have to explicitly do Metadata > Read Metadata From File to force LR to read it in.
 
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Kevin's symptoms are indeed a bug. See here for the bug report I just filed:
Done, and yes the steps that have been outlined in the case are accurate. thank you for doing that John!! I'm glad that someone else was able to verify and submit.

Guess we need to get some more people to do the ME TOO to have it looked at.

Thanks,
Kevin
 

Gnits

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Gnits, to test my understanding, here are the steps you're taking:

1. Change the caption of raw photo A.ARW to X.

2. Export A.ARW to A.JPG.

3. Import A.JPG into the catalog.

4. Change the caption of A.ARW to Y.

5. Export A.ARW to A.JPG, overwriting the previous version.

6. Observe in LR that A.JPG still has caption X, not Y.

Is my understanding of the steps correct? If so, this is expected behavior. If you change the metadata in a file that's already imported into LR (e.g. using an external app or by overwriting the file on export), LR won't automatically re-read that metadata into the catalog. You have to explicitly do Metadata > Read Metadata From File to force LR to read it in.
Yes ... the steps are correct.
And while Adobe consider this to be the correct handling of that scenario, I believe the thinking is flawed. So be it.

I have discussed this years ago at great length. I will try to find the threads of that discussion. But I do not want to bore people senseless by repeating the points I made earlier.

I have my own workaround. When I know I need to edit metadata back in the original raw image, so it travels correctly in future for any future kids of this raw image, I simply delete the original exported jpg(ie remove from catalog and remove from disk). The jpg gets exported with the correct metadata and the catalog entry for the jpg has the correct metadata. This process is now embedded in my dna and I complete this process without thinking. Unfortunately, this does not stop lots of other people from falling into this trap and assuming their metadata has been correctly processed.
 
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