Can't update metadata of images with Modd sidecar files.

[gegjr]

Lightroom Version Number

Lightroom Classic version: 10.3 [ 202105281559-8dc50eb4 ]

Operating System

1. Windows 10

Okay I'll apologize upfront because this will be confusing and very long.
Just a little background first. I am going through my photos using LrC in preparation for moving to a new external SSD making sure I have no missing files and just doing some general tidying up, adding and updating keywords.
Anyway, I have some older files from 2002 to 2004 that were taken with an Olympus Camedia C5050z. The raw file extension for this camera was ORF. Many of the pictures were converted to jpg but some were left as raw and some I kept the raw file even after converting to jpg. Obviously, these were prior to my using Lightroom because I didn't start using Lightroom until September 2010 version 3. I probably used the Camedia software to import the files to my hard drive and do any editing and file conversion.
So, once I started using Lightroom of course I imported these into Lightroom. Fast forward, now I'm finding that many of these files the jpegs and the ORF raw files have side car files many of which are modd files. I don't know if Lightroom created the modd files or if the old Olympus Camedia editing software created the modd files. I suspect and am all but sure it wasn't Lightroom that created the modd files because some of the ORF files have xmp side car files. But apparently when I imported the files Lightroom imported the modd files because Lightroom indicates the modd file exist (see screenshots). Some even have thm sidecars along with xmp sidecars.
The problem is that when I make keyword changes or add keywords then LrC won't update the metadata (see screenshot). I get error messages saying they are read only. I went into the properties and removed the read only attribute on the folder, but LrC still says the metadata can't be updated. As a test I removed the modd side car file but LrC still indicated the metadata couldn't be updated. So out of frustration I right clicked the photos and told LrC to update from disk. This of course removed the keyword changes I had made so I went back and re-entered the keywords and tried to update the metadata, but LrC still wouldn't update the metadata.
To add insult to injury Windows Explorer has an X on some of the files but not on them all. But LrC doesn't have any issues displaying the files. I am completely baffled which of course isn't altogether unbelievable . Oh, one more thing I've discovered long before now is that removing a file from LrC catalog if there is an modd file LrC doesn't remove it. You have to go into the OS file manager to remove the modd. I found this out by accident because I noticed that when I tried to remove what thought should be an empty folder from the catalog that LrC wouldn't remove it, so I went to Explorer and sure enough it was because the modd or thm files were still in the folder.
If anyone has any ideas I would appreciate your input.
Thanks

 

[clee01l]

Lightroom Only creates XMP sidecar files. So the Modd files came from somewhere else Googling "MODD" files , I done that MODD files are used by the Video Analysis feature within Sony Picture Motion Browser. This is probably where they came from. LrC won't update the metadata probably because the parent folder is read only. This is where I'd look to fixe R/W permissions. LrC will create an XMP when it has specific write permissions in the folder where the ORF resided.

ALL of the metadata is stored in the Lightroom Catalog file. Only some of the metadata gets duplicated in the XMP sidecar files. There is no benefit to creating and updating XMP files. There is great benefit in making frequent Catalog file backups.

 

[gegjr]

Lightroom Only creates XMP sidecar files. So the Modd files came from somewhere else Googling "MODD" files , I done that MODD files are used by the Video Analysis feature within Sony Picture Motion Browser. This is probably where they came from. LrC won't update the metadata probably because the parent folder is read only. This is where I'd look to fixe R/W permissions. LrC will create an XMP when it has specific write permissions in the folder where the ORF resided.

ALL of the metadata is stored in the Lightroom Catalog file. Only some of the metadata gets duplicated in the XMP sidecar files. There is no benefit to creating and updating XMP files. There is great benefit in making frequent Catalog file backups.

clee01I,
I appreciate you answering my post. I am curious since LrC doesn't create modd files then why do they show up in the metadata stack as illustrated in the screenshot shown here

 

[John R Ellis]

I am curious since LrC doesn't create modd files then why do they show up in the metadata

For a given raw file, LR will list as "sidecars" any additional files with the same base name that aren't image files. For example:

LR doesn't understand .txt, .modd, and .helloworld! extensions, but it lists them anyway.

 

[gegjr]

For a given raw file, LR will list as "sidecars" any additional files with the same base name that aren't image files. For example:

View attachment 16920

LR doesn't understand .txt, .modd, and .helloworld! extensions, but it lists them anyway.

Maybe it's just me but by listing the files the impression is they are somehow being cataloged with the image just like xmp sidecar files. Since listed I don't get why if the associated image file is deleted LrC doesn't ask if you wish to delete the sidecar file, too? Would make sense to me.

 

[clee01l]

Maybe it's just me but by listing the files the impression is they are somehow being cataloged with the image just like xmp sidecar files. Since listed I don't get why if the associated image file is deleted LrC doesn't ask if you wish to delete the sidecar file, too? Would make sense to me.

“Cataloged with the Image”. The only thing in the Lightroom Catalog about the image is its location in the file system (FilePath) and its File Name. The same is true with sidecar files. The path is known from the image File Path and its name is listed in the List of Sidecar File Names.


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[gegjr]

“Cataloged with the Image”. The only thing in the Lightroom Catalog about the image is its location in the file system (FilePath) and its File Name. The same is true with sidecar files. The path is known from the image File Path and its name is listed in the List of Sidecar File Names.


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I used the phrase "cataloged with the image" because that how it, as I said, appears. It's no different than LrC showing the xmp as a sidecar for raw images. And unless I completely misunderstand side car files for raw images are mire than just "there". Their used to hold editing information about the associated image, isn't that right? Supposedly, according to LrC documentation that same information is embedded into non raw files.
So, that said, I don't understand you pointing to the use of the phrase "cataloged with the image"?

 

[clee01l]

I used the phrase "cataloged with the image" because that how it, as I said, appears. It's no different than LrC showing the xmp as a sidecar for raw images. And unless I completely misunderstand side car files for raw images are mire than just "there". Their used to hold editing information about the associated image, isn't that right? Supposedly, according to LrC documentation that same information is embedded into non raw files.
So, that said, I don't understand you pointing to the use of the phrase "cataloged with the image"?

XMP side cars are added by Lightroom Classic. Lightroom has information contained in the XMP file and does write to them. The other sidecar files are not used by Lightroom and Lightroom has not use for them others than tracking their presence. One of the Sidecar files can be a sound clip created be the camera microphone. It might be used by another app just like your MODD file. But it is never used by Lightroom.

The cleanest definition of catalog is “A complete list of items”. This is what Lightroom has done, Listed the Side Car files that have some association with the image file. A side car file share the file name of the image file and has a different extension. It doe not have any purpose with Lightroom. Lightroom will use an XMP side car if it finds it on import but does not read from the file ever again. Lightroom will create an XMP file if requested, but these file are not necessary to Lightroom after the image file has been imported.


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[John R Ellis]

by listing the files the impression is they are somehow being cataloged with the image just like xmp sidecar files. Since listed I don't get why if the associated image file is deleted LrC doesn't ask if you wish to delete the sidecar file, too?

When you delete a cataloged photo from disk, LR also deletes all the listed sidecar files.

I don't know why LR lists those additional files as sidecars, when it only understands .xmp cars for raw (and .jpg and .thm files for videos).

 

[gegjr]

When you delete a cataloged photo from disk, LR also deletes all the listed sidecar files.

I don't know why LR lists those additional files as sidecars, when it only understands .xmp cars for raw (and .jpg and .thm files for videos).

At the risk of being repetitive, again I ask, since the, modd, txt, etc are listed as sidecar files why aren't they deleted when the image file is deleted just like the xmp file is deleted with the image? Because when the associated image file is deleted there is no need for the sidecar regardless of the extension wouldn't you agree? I know it's a bit of a moot point but I'm just saying why leave it? Why not ask if it needs to be deleted? After all LrC was developed as a DRM first and foremost but apparently the emphasis is no longer on DRM but has shifted to image editing. Just MHO. This is all just for the sake of discussion and is intended for Adobe developer if their paying attention. Fat chance right?

 

[John R Ellis]

since the, modd, txt, etc are listed as sidecar files why aren't they deleted when the image file is deleted just like the xmp file is deleted with the image?

In my testing, all the listed sidecar files are deleted.

 

[gegjr]

That is absolutely not my experience. I have deleted all images in a folder only to have LrC not allow me to remove the folder. When I look at the folder in Explorer the reason the folder could not be deleted by LrC is that some files were still there. Usually, modd or txt files.

 

[clee01l]

That is absolutely not my experience. I have deleted all images in a folder only to have LrC not allow me to remove the folder. When I look at the folder in Explorer the reason the folder could not be deleted by LrC is that some files were still there. Usually, modd or txt files.

You might check filesystem permissions on those files. Lightroom might have Read permissions but not write. Lightroom can not delete files that it does not have full access to.


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[gegjr]

You might check filesystem permissions on those files. Lightroom might have Read permissions but not write. Lightroom can not delete files that it does not have full access to.


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That is a thought. I will check into that. I know for some reason Windows likes to make files read-only for what reason I don't know and I doubt Microsoft even knows. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.