Another question… sorry.

[stevemoorevale]

Lightroom Version Number

14.4

Operating System

1. Windows 10

Hello again. I need some convincing.
For over a decade I’ve been exporting every edited image as a tiff file in order to bake in my edits. This was because I’ve had situations, especially when using photomechanic alongside Lightroom which I no longer do, where metadata has been overwritten and once Lightroom relaunched, my edits have disappeared.
I am aware that Lightroom is designed to be a non destructive editor and I’m trying to change my ways and just edit a photo and move on without exporting. Having catalogue backups should allow me to recover edits on files they may, for one reason or another, have been removed from.
Is it, in your opinion, best practice to not export for any other reason than to use the image for a reason such as posting on social media or print and trust the system. Trusting it is what I’m struggling to do but I guess providing I have a solid backup in place I should be fine and can recover edits easily. What about if I decide to stop using Lightroom one day?

 

[Califdan]

Hello again. I need some convincing.

99.9% of LrC users not exporting image copies to disk after each edit session isn't convincing enough?

For over a decade I’ve been exporting every edited image as a tiff file in order to bake in my edits. This was because I’ve had situations, especially when using photomechanic alongside Lightroom which I no longer do, where metadata has been overwritten and once Lightroom relaunched, my edits have disappeared.

As you have discovered, things can get messy if you try to use two diffrerent image management systems on the same images. I can't speak to PM, or how it works, but people who try to use different management systems in paralell tend to get tangled up

I am aware that Lightroom is designed to be a non destructive editor and I’m trying to change my ways and just edit a photo and move on without exporting. Having catalogue backups should allow me to recover edits on files they may, for one reason or another, have been removed from.

Having a good catralog backup routine (that you've verified is working) is as important as backing up the images themselves. However the only times when one needs to go back to a backup catalog is if you wind up with a corrupted or missing catalog. This does happen but as you say reverting to last nights backup solves the problem for ALL images in the catalog.

Is it, in your opinion, best practice to not export for any other reason than to use the image for a reason such as posting on social media or print and trust the system.

This is exacly my opinion. The ONLY reason to export images (we call this creating a derivative image) is to have a fully edited version for some specific use such as sending to a print lab, entering in a competition, posting on a wesite, etc. And, once the image has served that purpose most folks just delet the derivative image.

Trusting it is what I’m struggling to do but I guess providing I have a solid backup in place I should be fine and can recover edits easily. What about if I decide to stop using Lightroom one day?

If you decide to abandon LrC one day you have a few choices depending on what you are going to replace it with.

1) If you save XMP data in/with images, either manually or by setting LrC to do it automatically, you get extra data in or with each image file which has the information needed to bring the original (un-edited) image up to its current edit state. This XMP data is in a industry standard format so it is likely whatever SW you move to will be able to make use of it.

2) At that point you can export all your images

3) Even if you stop paying your rent on LrC, you are still able utilize the Library module for whatever version you were using when you stopped paying. You won't be albe to go into the develop or Map modules though.

 

[clee01l]

Is it, in your opinion, best practice to not export for any other reason than to use the image for a reason such as posting on social media or print and trust the system.

Why else do you need an image? If the image is not going to be seen outside of Lightroom why export it. (Why even keep it for that matter)

You might look into Publish Services. There are already social media services designed for the purpose. And the Hard Drive Publish Services generates a image file to be used in Slideshows and other presentations A Social Media Publish Service will create the derivative as a temporary file send it to the social media destination and delete the temporary file. The File remains in the Classic environment to be exported again if necessary. The publih service generates a history step in Classic so that if need be you can return to that point and republish.

Lightroom Classic is your image management tool. It should be the only process that accesses the original If you follow that rule, then everything that you need will be inside Lightroom

 

[Conrad Chavez]

For over a decade I’ve been exporting every edited image as a tiff file in order to bake in my edits…Is it, in your opinion, best practice to not export for any other reason than to use the image for a reason such as posting on social media or print and trust the system.

Philosophically, I don’t see a problem with exporting every edited image as a TIFF file. It does have the advantage of providing you with the image, with its edits, in a lossless format that’s immediately readable in a wide range of software and can be previewed right on the computer desktop. It’s true that if you have just the raw file and the catalog, and there is no exported copy, the image as it was edited by Lightroom Classic exists only “virtually” — it can be viewed only in software that understands how to render the edits.

Practically, one reason I don’t export every edited image as a TIFF file is because it would take up many times more storage space than the raw files plus the catalog, so I would have to buy more/bigger drives. The TIFF derivatives are also an additional workflow step, and a whole other set of files that must be backed up, and also file-managed: If I update the raw file, the TIFF must be updated too. So, I’m one of the many who does not export a copy of every edited image, and instead practices “trust the system…but back up anything you can’t afford to lose.”

What about if I decide to stop using Lightroom one day?

You can do a Select All and save every raw image’s edits to XMP sidecar files. But keep in mind that the benefits would be uneven…

As Califdan said, the EXIF and IPTC image metadata can be read by numerous other applications. Many other applications should be able to read the camera shot data, keywords, captions…the things you can enter in the Library and Map modules.

However, without Lightroom Classic, any Adobe-proprietary adjustments (that is, the Develop module adjustments) stored in those XMP files can be rendered only by Adobe Camera Raw and Adobe Bridge, and edited only in Camera Raw. If you plan to continue on with that software, no problem. Edit in Camera Raw and enter/read metadata in Bridge.

The real problem is if you decide to completely exit the Adobe software universe, because I don’t know of any non-Adobe software that can read, let you edit, and render the adjustments done in the Develop module. For raw files, you’d be starting over in the other software. To be able to see your edits as they were in Lightroom Classic, you would have to select all images in the catalog and export all to a format such as TIFF before uninstalling Lightroom Classic.

The other big loss would be any catalog-specific work such as collections, slide shows, virtual copies, and print layouts. Those aren’t stored in XMP sidecar files, only in the catalog. Lightroom Classic collections and smart collections can’t be converted to Bridge collections and smart collections.

 

[Zenon]

I have used Lightroom since 2011 and I have never kept any of my exported Jpegs from event shooting. If a customer ever needed them again I would just export them. If you want to keep exported files create one master folder and subfolders by year. In each year name those subfolders by event type and date. Keep it simple and all in one place. For quick reference I do that for my most favourite hobby shots that I post on social media which is only handful per year. 2024 has 251 files but I post more than that. Gotta be special to keep.

I also keep separate folder for Portfolio but named by photo type. B&W, Scenic and so on. Not many in there either. I just find it easier that way and prefer to size and sharpen each file I send up there myself.

 

[stevemoorevale]

Many thanks for all your answers. The points you all make are great and so going forward I’m going to trust it. It’s my own fault as I overthink these things and worry too much. As Califdan said, 99% of users use it this way, the intended way, so it must work.
Going forward I won’t export unless for a specific reason and I wool continue with the backup on exit. I’m photographing an airshow this weekend so that will be a good starting point.
Thanks again.

 

[Gnits]

continue with the backup on exit

I have not absorbed the full post... so excuse me if this has been covered...

Just make sure you are backing up to a different drive than the catalog ... as otherwise if the catalog drive fails ... your backups disappear as well ..

 

[Zenon]

I back up my catalogue often. My OS is backed to an external powered drive so the catalogue backups get backed up. All my RAW files are stored on a second powered drive and backed up daily to a third powered drive daily.

I’ve never messed around with any other type of storage options and I try and run a clean and organized ship. Since 2011 I’ve never had any issues with only one master catalogue I’ve had with all the new versions and catalogue upgrades over years. Even merging travel catalogues to master. Pretty stable system.

 

[stevemoorevale]

I have not absorbed the full post... so excuse me if this has been covered...

Just make sure you are backing up to a different drive than the catalog ... as otherwise if the catalog drive fails ... your backups disappear as well ..

I believe they’re on the same drive. I will change that. My actual image storage system is done properly adhering to the 123 system. Raid on site and backup off site too.

 

[clee01l]

I believe they’re on the same drive. I will change that. My actual image storage system is done properly adhering to the 123 system. Raid on site and backup off site too.

May I point out that RAID is not backup but only redundant copy


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[jrobnz]

The real problem is if you decide to completely exit the Adobe software universe, because I don’t know of any non-Adobe software that can read, let you edit, and render the adjustments done in the Develop module. For raw files, you’d be starting over in the other software. To be able to see your edits as they were in Lightroom Classic, you would have to select all images in the catalog and export all to a format such as TIFF before uninstalling Lightroom Classic.

My understanding is if you stop your Creative Cloud subscription you can continue to use LrC to view and export your images (with all their edits) but can't go into the Develop module. I think you might even be able to make minor edits using the quick develop option in the library. I also think that library filters and collections continue to work too and you can view and add/remove to collections. Essentially anything you can do in the library module still works.

Is that all correct? What about publish services, would they also continue to work too?

 

[Zenon]

My understanding is if you stop your Creative Cloud subscription you can continue to use LrC to view and export your images (with all their edits) but can't go into the Develop module. I think you might even be able to make minor edits using the quick develop option in the library. I also think that library filters and collections continue to work too and you can view and add/remove to collections. Essentially anything you can do in the library module still works.

Is that all correct? What about publish services, would they also continue to work too?

This is correct and you get 2GB of cloud storage for life.

 

[Conrad Chavez]

My understanding is if you stop your Creative Cloud subscription you can continue to use LrC to view and export your images (with all their edits) but can't go into the Develop module…

Yes, I think that’s still true. However it does mean that the state of the photos in catalogs would be sort of “frozen in amber” except for the few relative adjustments available in Quick Develop, or maybe through presets. If canceling a subscription means new updates can’t be installed, it also leaves catalogs vulnerable if future changes to the OS or hardware become incompatible with the last version of Lightroom Classic that you were able to install before canceling. That also means if something bad happened to a computer where normally a recovery step means reinstalling Lightroom Classic, that might no longer be an option if the subscription has lapsed.

If someone really wanted to leave Adobe, it would be best for it to be a clean break and not relying on Lightroom Classic any more. The continued availability of most of Lightroom Classic is a convenient stopgap during a transition to a new photo editor, but without the Develop module or access to updates or reinstallation it doesn’t seem like it can be relied on for the long term.

 

[Zenon]

Yes, I think that’s still true. However it does mean that the state of the photos in catalogs would be sort of “frozen in amber” except for the few relative adjustments available in Quick Develop, or maybe through presets. If canceling a subscription means new updates can’t be installed, it also leaves catalogs vulnerable if future changes to the OS or hardware become incompatible with the last version of Lightroom Classic that you were able to install before canceling. That also means if something bad happened to a computer where normally a recovery step means reinstalling Lightroom Classic, that might no longer be an option if the subscription has lapsed.

If someone really wanted to leave Adobe, it would be best for it to be a clean break and not relying on Lightroom Classic any more. The continued availability of most of Lightroom Classic is a convenient stopgap during a transition to a new photo editor, but without the Develop module or access to updates or reinstallation it doesn’t seem like it can be relied on for the long term.

That had always been my plan since 2018. If I ever leave it would be a clean break. I’d leave all the files in the their location. If I need to export any then I could. I’d want to work with a new developer exclusively.

 

[Califdan]

Of course if you droppedyour supscripton and later needed to reinstall or needed a new versions due to some OS change, you could sign up for a 8 day free trial, download the newer version, convert your catalog and then let the free trial expire (or pay for one month and then let it expire) and you'd be up to date again. (so it seems).

 

[Jim Wilde]

If canceling a subscription means new updates can’t be installed, it also leaves catalogs vulnerable if future changes to the OS or hardware become incompatible with the last version of Lightroom Classic that you were able to install before canceling. That also means if something bad happened to a computer where normally a recovery step means reinstalling Lightroom Classic, that might no longer be an option if the subscription has lapsed.

I believe that updates are still available, even when running in the reduced functionality mode.

 

[Johan Elzenga]

Of course if you droppedyour supscripton and later needed to reinstall or needed a new versions due to some OS change, you could sign up for a 8 day free trial, download the newer version, convert your catalog and then let the free trial expire (or pay for one month and then let it expire) and you'd be up to date again. (so it seems).

Pay for one month and then let it expire? Am I missing something? AFAIK, there are only subscriptions for a year, that you can pay monthly.

 

[clee01l]

Pay for one month and then let it expire? Am I missing something? AFAIK, there are only subscriptions for a year, that you can pay monthly.

No not missing anything. There are only Annual subscriptions either paid monthly or annually. There are penalties for getting out of your annual subscription.


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[Hal P Anderson]

I believe that updates are still available, even when running in the reduced functionality mode.

This was my experience during the couple of years I let my subscription lapse.

 

[Zenon]

Pay for one month and then let it expire? Am I missing something? AFAIK, there are only subscriptions for a year, that you can pay monthly.

I think that is it. If you go past the 8 day trial then there is no pay for one month and let it expire scenario. If are paying monthly and planning to let it expire after one month then you may as well use it for the other eleven months unless you opt out early and pay the penalty. If you paid for the whole year up front there is no refund if you quit part way. This is the same for any perpetual licensed software once you go past whatever trial period they offer.

 

[Zenon]

That had always been my plan since 2018. If I ever leave it would be a clean break. I’d leave all the files in the their location. If I need to export any then I could. I’d want to work with a new developer exclusively.

Forgot to say that even if I quite I might continue to import into LrC so the files are at least in the database and use the same folder structure. If I ever decide to go back to LrC they are ready to go. I'd just access those files via whatever app I'm using. I'd just have to be careful not delete or move folders using the OS or the other app. As long as the app is non destructive it should be OK. I've tested it with Canon's DPP and LrC edits were not affected.

Being on many forums one of the major misconceptions about LrC takes over file management. People think importing results in LrC creating a duplicate set of of files or it whisks your original files off to some secret location. Some can be convinced it does not do that but others just can never get past it. "I like to use my own filing system". With LrC you are using using your own filing system. Oh well. You can't win them all.

 

[iwaddo]

I back up my catalogue often. My OS is backed to an external powered drive so the catalogue backups get backed up. All my RAW files are stored on a second powered drive and backed up daily to a third powered drive daily.

I’ve never messed around with any other type of storage options and I try and run a clean and organized ship. Since 2011 I’ve never had any issues with only one master catalogue I’ve had with all the new versions and catalogue upgrades over years. Even merging travel catalogues to master. Pretty stable system.

Are your powered drives all permanently connected next to your computer?

If so, I’m wondering if your backups are susceptible to fire and theft, it might be worth considering disconnecting them and storing them offsite or to introduce a cloud backup like Backblaze. I do both and more.

Just a thought

 

[Zenon]

Are your powered drives all permanently connected next to your computer?

If so, I’m wondering if your backups are susceptible to fire and theft, it might be worth considering disconnecting them and storing them offsite or to introduce a cloud backup like Backblaze. I do both and more.

Just a thought

Yes they are. About every 6 months I update a 4th drive that lives in my banks safety deposit box. If I was a professional I likely have something like Backblaze. That is just for my memories. No one will be having Saturday night's with popcorn looking at my stuff when I'm gone.

 

[iwaddo]

Yes they are. About every 6 months I update a 4th drive that lives in my banks safety deposit box. If I was a professional I likely have something like Backblaze. That is just for my memories. No one will be having Saturday night's with popcorn looking at my stuff when I'm gone.

But if you came home one day and someone had broken in and pinched everything...........

I know so many people who only have the one redundant copy, I'm not a professional, it's just my snaps, going back years, but I could not sleep without multiple layers of backup.

I met someone yesterday who said their daughter had had their phone stolen, she has lost all her baby pics...
I know someone who bought a new phone and lost all their images...

All three of these scenarios are easily and quite cheaply avoidable.

 

[Zenon]

But if you came home one day and someone had broken in and pinched everything...........

I know so many people who only have the one redundant copy, I'm not a professional, it's just my snaps, going back years, but I could not sleep without multiple layers of backup.

I met someone yesterday who said their daughter had had their phone stolen, she has lost all her baby pics...
I know someone who bought a new phone and lost all their images...

All three of these scenarios are easily and quite cheaply avoidable.

I already pay enough in subscriptions and 99% of my photos of wildlife and travel. I'm not too worried about it.