• Welcome to the Lightroom Queen Forums! We're a friendly bunch, so please feel free to register and join in the conversation. If you're not familiar with forums, you'll find step by step instructions on how to post your first thread under Help at the bottom of the page. You're also welcome to download our free Lightroom Quick Start eBooks and explore our other FAQ resources.
  • Stop struggling with Lightroom! There's no need to spend hours hunting for the answers to your Lightroom Classic questions. All the information you need is in Adobe Lightroom Classic - The Missing FAQ!

    To help you get started, there's a series of easy tutorials to guide you through a simple workflow. As you grow in confidence, the book switches to a conversational FAQ format, so you can quickly find answers to advanced questions. And better still, the eBooks are updated for every release, so it's always up to date.
  • 12 December 2024 It's Lightroom update time again! See What’s New in Lightroom Classic 14.1, Mobile & Desktop (December 2024)? for Feature updates, new cameras and lenses, and bug fixes.

Adobe has found bugs in Apple Mac Neural Engine

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

bakubo

Member
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
68
Lightroom Version Number
Lightroom Classic 12.3
Operating System
  1. macOS 13 Ventura
Earlier I posted this info in the wrong thread. I accidentally posted it in a Windows PC Nvidia GPU thread. This is info for Apple Silicon Mac users though.

Adobe and DxO have found bugs in the Neural Engine so are unable to use it. DxO PhotoLab up through Monterey could use it, but they found a bug over 6 months ago in Ventura so they warn people to use the much slower GPU. Adobe has also found a bug (unknown if it is the same as the one DxO found or another one) so they have disabled the code in Lightroom that uses the Neural Engine for all versions of MacOS. Both Adobe and DxO say they have been waiting for Apple to fix the problems. There have been 6 Ventura updates since DxO found the problem, but none of those updates included a fix from Apple.

Adobe info concerning the Neural Engine problem(s):

Eric Chan, one of the longtime senior Adobe software engineers, wrote this article about Denoise AI:

Denoise demystified

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/04/18/denoise-demystified

Finally, we built our machine learning models to take full advantage of the latest platform technologies, including NVIDIA’s TensorCores and the Apple Neural Engine. Using these technologies enables our models to run faster on modern hardware.

But, then Ian Lyon wrote:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/denoise-ai-in-12-3/m-p/13739400

Currently, the Apple Neural Engine found in M1/M2 silicon Macs is not used by Denoise. It's expected that performance will be even better when Denoise does use the Apple Neural Engine.

There is no change to above comments regarding the use of Tensor cores in NVidia cards. That is, Tensor cores are used by Denoise.

Apparently, an issue on Apple side means that the Neural Engine is not used by Adobe Denoise. When the issue is addressed, then Adobe Denoise is ready to take advantage of the Neural Engine.

And then Rikk Flohr confirmed it:

Ian Lyons information is correct regarding the Neural Engine on Apple devices

Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

Here is what DxO tells their users (see red notice at bottom):

Screenshot 2023-05-02 at 14.30.00.jpg



PC/Nvidia//Windows users do get the full performance from Lightroom/Photoshop and DxO PhotoLab. Unfortunately, us Mac users get much lower performance because the Neural Engine cannot be used anymore. Apple Silicon DxO users report that using the Neural Engine is at least 4 times faster than using the GPU. DxO DeepPrime and Lightroom Denoise AI need lots of computing power so not being able to use the very fast Neural Engine is a big disadvantage for Mac users.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
My 2019 iMac which I future proofed for AI takes Deniose 45 seconds but so did Photo AI and PureRaw3 that has XD. 500GB SSD drive which is only half full.

My 2020 MacBook Air with the M1 takes 75 seconds. 250 SSD which is also about half full. Better than I expected and at least I can use it. I'm a hobby shooter and have the time when I'm traveling. Hopefully they can resolve that. I wouldn't turn down a little faster.

It will be interesting to see what comes first. The fix or Adobe finding a way around the DNG route.
 

Attachments

  • AM.jpg
    AM.jpg
    21.7 KB · Views: 152
  • Screenshot-2023-05-06-at-10.22.57-AM.jpg
    Screenshot-2023-05-06-at-10.22.57-AM.jpg
    24.3 KB · Views: 142
Upvote 0 Downvote
Ventura 13.4 was released a couple of days ago. I can find no mention of any Neural Engine bugs fixed though. If this problem has not been fixed then this is the 7th Ventura update without a fix. If Apple has fixed it then, I suppose, we will need to wait for LrC 12.4 for Adobe to enable the Neural Engine code.

Apple releases macOS Ventura 13.4 with new sports-related features

https://9to5mac.com/2023/05/18/macos-ventura-13-4-now-available/
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I tried it on my my MB Air withe M1. No difference.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
bakubo said:
Are you using LrC 12.3? If so then it seems Adobe disabled the Neural Engine code so I would expect no difference.
Click to expand...
Yes the latest version.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Zenon said:
Yes the latest version.
Click to expand...
As I said way up above it seems that Adobe implemented the use of the NE in LrC 12.3, but then disabled it before release because it found an Apple NE bug. It may be the same bug that DxO found over 6 months ago or it may be a different bug. In any case, if Apple has finally fixed it on this 7th Ventura update since it was found then I expect that us LrC users will not be able to take advantage of it until Adobe re-enables their NE code in a later release, such as LrC 12.4.

I saw on another forum that someone says that it seems to some DxO users that Ventura 13.4 has fixed the problem for them. But that is just preliminary info. Maybe DxO will officially say something later if it is in fact fixed.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
It seems likely that Ventura 13.4 did not fix the Neural Engine problem that DxO has been waiting for. Here is the update info for DxO PhotoLab 6.6 (I found somewhere that 6.6.1 was released on 2023/5/20 -- Ventura 13.4 was released on 2023/5/18):

https://download-center.dxo.com/Support/docs/PhotoLab_v6/release-notes/PL6_release-note_mac_EN.pdf

Note what DxO wrote down at the bottom in the Bug fixes section where there are 2 bugs mentioned:

Screenshot 2023-05-20 at 14.08.08.jpg


If Apple had fixed the NE problem in 13.4 then older versions of DxO should again start working properly like they do with Monterey and earlier, but apparently they do not. It sounds like DxO has implemented some sort of kludge that allows use of the fast NE on Ventura, but somehow fixes or mitigates the color problem -- but only if you use 6.6 though. For example, maybe after the NE does its work DxO then corrects the color problem and it only does this when running on Ventura. Not good. It sounds like pre-6.6 versions running on Ventura will still have the problem, but they are okay on Monterey and earlier versions.

And we know nothing yet about the problems Adobe has with the Neural Engine. Maybe the same as DxO or maybe different problems.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
We should also note that there's an issue with running AI Denoise on the much lauded new Intel Arc GPUs. I guess this is expected as we enter the scary brave new world of AI.
I have to admit, I'm addicted to Denoise and look forward to having more options to reduce the 4min it takes me now, to a few seconds.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
BobT said:
We should also note that there's an issue with running AI Denoise on the much lauded new Intel Arc GPUs. I guess this is expected as we enter the scary brave new world of AI.
I have to admit, I'm addicted to Denoise and look forward to having more options to reduce the 4min it takes me now, to a few seconds.
Click to expand...
It is addictive indeed.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top