16 bits output for printing in LR 3 Beta Windows 32 based

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Hi, I´m a Guillermo, from Argentina. Here in South America we don´t have the chance to a take a good workshop about Lightroom. I´m a nobel printmaker, and I would like to ask you guys if you can help me out to solve a critical "color management" workflow situation that I´m having...
My workflow is the following:
1- I process all my files (and customers files, like DNG Raw, Tiff or Jpeg) using Silkypix Developer Studio Pro. I choose the AdobeRGB color space icc profile embebed with the files when I export them to work in Lightroom 3 Beta.
2- In Lightroom Beta I open the files, gives them a minor color correction, and prepare them for printing (I own a LFP, the HP Designjet z32''ps 44"). As far as I know, LR 3 Beta works only with Prophoto RGB color space (in and out)
3- Within the LR 3 Beta, I call the HP printer PostScript driver, I let the printer to manage the color managment, chosing the AdobeRGB color space in the printer dialog box, so I can print "only" in 16 bits color.
My question are...
* It´s there any down conversion between the AdobeRGB color space in Silkypix after the files are imported in Lightroom?
* It´s any chance to force Lightroom to work in AdobeRGB and not in ProphotoRGB?
The test I´ve done so far are very good, but I´m not sure if I´m not messing with the color spaces working that way.
The HP Designjet z32''ps Manual "specifically" says that they NO guarantee if you send a 16 bits Tiff file to the printer from the Software (Photoshop, LR, others) that it will be printed in 16 bits unless you let the Printer Manage the Colors... In the LR 3 Beta Windows version there is no such a check-box that lets you send the file in 16 bits (yes, you can export the file to your desktop in 16 bits).
So I can asume that the LR 3 downconvert the 16 bits file to 8 bits per channel and the then send it to the printer (so bad). I`ve made some test prints and the quality of the prints if LR 3 manage the colors are of LESS quality (less crispy, less details in the shadows, etc.) of those manage by the printer, but the color accurary of the latest differs from what I´m seeing in my calibrated monitor whithin LR 3. What I have to do?
 
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Just to add to this thread, Guillermo and I have been chatting by email, and can a Windows LR3b user please check if they see a '16 bit output' checkbox in the Print Job dialog? I have one, but Guillermo said it's missing on his. Is it OS dependent? Or perhaps driver dependent? That's the bit we're trying to figure out, but I can't check that right now.
 
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I have certainly seen and heard it said that the 16bit output was only available on the Mac. I don't think Windows supports 16bit drivers but that may have changed in v7.


Update: There is a workaround for XP & v7 using a 32bit API called XPS but you have to have drivers that can support it so its very limited at present.

http://ddisoftware.com/tech/qimage/qimage-with-16bit-printers
 
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Yep, Print Job panel underneath the sharpening line.

Hmmm, that is interesting Nik. I thought I'd heard the same myself, but I couldn't remember where.
 
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Hello everybody,
Thanks for your help. Unfortunately as the manual says, there is not a checkbox in LR 3 Beta Win32 version to send 16 bits files directly to the printer that supports them. So I have several questions around my mind...
Option 1- LR 3 Beta WIN32 version downconverts by default the RBG files to 8 bits when it sent them to the printer. Only Mac OS version supports 16 bits output
Option 2- According to HP people, the only way to assure that your are printing in 16 bits from any Adobe soft if you let the printer manage the colors. That´s crazy, because the Mac version eventually allows you to print in 16 bits mode.
Option 3- What if the Win32 version of LR 3 Beta sends "by default" all it´s files in 16 bits? If you don´t have a 16 bits capable printer, the printer driver will downconvert the file to 8 bits per channel to print them.
I hope you can help me to figure out which is the best way to solve this critical CM situation. I print "quality museum" files, and excellence is the only option I have.
Guillermo
 
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As far as I can tell from reading about on the web, it's the Windows 8bit drivers that are the limitation and not Adobe. There ways around this using the XPS api. I would investigate this if I were you.
 
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Then it´s like HP people are saying to me... I have to send the file (16 bits Tiff processed in LR3 beta in this case) and let the the Hp z32'' printer Postscript driver manage colors. I´ve tried this way, and the quality looks better than letting LR3 beta managing color. If I use Photoshop CS3, having the paper emulation or soft profing function is completely useless, because I do need that Photoshop manages color. I don´t know how to work with XPS api, as you suggests. It´s there any web link where I can read about it? Thanks
Guillermo
 
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I don't know either I use a Mac. I used Google to get the answers I have found so far so would recommend you try it too :)

Just as an aside... I have yet to meet anyone that can tell the difference between 8bit and 16bit printing.
 
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I´ve made some tests and the difference between printing in 8 bits or 16 bits is noticeable (I based my test just changing who manage color in the print module in LR 3 beta). If I let the printer manage color (so I suppose LR 3 is not doing the conversion to 8 bits before it gets to the printer), the file printed that way is sharper, it has more detail in the shadows, and the colors looks more vibrant (Tiff file with AdobeRGB icc, 16 bits, sharpennig high chosen in the LR3 print module).
 
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[quote author=chichornio link=topic=9267.msg625'2#msg625'2 date=1267449388]
(I based my test just changing who manage color in the print module in LR 3 beta)
[/quote]

Not really a fair comparison then :)
 
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Most images won't benefit from 16 bits. Only those with extremely subtle gradients where otherwise one may notice a slight posterization.
 
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What do you mean by that? That printing in 16 bits will make the image to look "less real" compared to what we are accostumed to see? The manual of the printer says...
Print 16-bit color images
In a 16-bit RGB image, each of the three primary colors is encoded by a 16-bit value, so that each pixel
takes up 48 bits.
Printing
If you print your 16-bit color images through a printer driver, they will be reduced to 8-bit colors before
they reach the printer.
In order to send a 16-bit color image to the printer, you must save it as a 16-bit color TIFF or JPEG file,
then send the file directly to the printer without using a printer driver (see Using the Embedded Web
Server to print files on page 46). In this case, color management is done on the 16-bit color image, and
is therefore done more accurately. The image is still reduced to 8-bit colors for final printing.
TIP: Some applications refuse to save a 16-bit color image in JPEG format; others automatically
reduce it to 8-bit colors. A TIFF file generally gives a higher-quality result, and is recommended.
I´m confused... Any help welcome.
Guillermo
 
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Guillermo, no, Denis is just saying that there won't be a visible difference on most images. It'll only be ones with smooth gradients (perhaps a gradient that you've added in a sky) that may show an improvement in the real world.
 
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Guillermo, your last update states that the image will be printed in 8bit no matter what method you use. It states that 16 bit colour is only used during the 'colour management' stage. The 16 bit colour management stage can be done in the printer using the method you described or in LR / Photoshop.

If you want to use printer managed colour in 16bit you need to bypass the driver. If you want to use application 16bit colour management you do that in the app and then print via the driver in 8 bits.

The result is the same, in both cases the actual print is done in 8bits.
 
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Yes Victoria, I know what you mean...But as I have previously said in this tread, the files printed "ignoring" the LR3 Beta color management and letting the printer to manage color, have more noticeable quality. The colors "looks" almost the same, but you can see more details in the shadows, a little more contrast without losing shadows details, etc... Sorry if I´m getting anxious.... but can someone tell me if LR 3 beta Windows 32 based (or LR 2 for instance) can actually send a "real" 48 bit file to my printer? (hp z32''ps 44"). I just want to get of my printer, and the best to my clients... Thanks
Guillermo
pd: If win32 LR3 can´t do it, well, it´s time to get a Mac (which I used a lot in the early´s 9')
 
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Thanks very much for your help. After doing several intense print testing, I totally convinced that I have to let the Printer to manage color (at least in Win32 based system, I don´t have a Mac, maybe it´s the next step). Same files printed in LR3 Beta with the same ICC color space profile embebbed (AdobeRGB), the difference between Printed Managing color or Soft Managing color (LR3 beta) is very clear for me. The latest have less definition, the picture is a little blurred and the color reproduccion is not the way I like it. I think it´s a HP issue... they must be clear when they sell a Printer... If you don´t have a Mac Os system installed in you system, it won´t work.
 
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