1 Raw file, Many xmp files for different edits/versions

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A friend who's using Aperture on the Mac says that he can have make many versions of an image (eg B&W, sepia, tri-max, normal color) without having multiple copies of the Raw+xmp file. Apparently the different versions are captured as different instruction sets.

I'm on LR2.2 and I wonder how I can do the same thing. I'd guess that I'll need to have multiple xmp files to capture the different settings for each version. Can anyone help explain how to do this? Will also appreciate links to any resources / tutorials how to do this.

Thanks
 
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Virtual Copies
 
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Actually, that was a bit brief, but in LR you right click an image and create a virtual copy. You can also make them in bulk (eg for b&w of a whole shoot) by selecting a load of files, then creating a new collection and ticking a box.
 
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Thanks John. That's cool :) I wanted to be able to edit & make diff versions in LR without taking them to photoshop & to export jpegs of the diff versions from LR. The export works :)

Do I have to do a ctrl-S to save the 2 versions' settings in the xmp? or are the diff settings merely stored in the catalogue? what's best practice?

Thanks
kc
 
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[quote author=johnbeardy link=topic=73'7.msg49737#msg49737 date=12482739'2]
Virtual Copies
[/quote]It seems to me that VCs do not create an XMP sidecar file. but rather store the virtual copy XMP in the database. For that matter, I don't have any XMP files (at least not any created by Lightroom) My camera produces a DNG format file as its RAW file and LR imports that directly without modification. Upon processing with LR, the XMP data is written directly to the master DNG file unless I create a VC. In the case of processing the VCs, the XMP data is not written to the master DNG file but to the database. In what instances does LR create a physical XMP file?
 
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Snapshots are stored in XMP. When you create or modify a Virtual copy, create a snapshot at the same time to have the settings stored in XMP. Snapshots saved inside a Virtual Copy are also available to the original file.
 
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[quote author=Sean McCormack link=topic=73'7.msg49746#msg49746 date=1248279421]
Snapshots are stored in XMP. When you create or modify a Virtual copy, create a snapshot at the same time to have the settings stored in XMP. Snapshots saved inside a Virtual Copy are also available to the original file.
[/quote]Snapshots created in the VC are available to the master, but they are not written to the XMP metadata written to the master. I have a Master DNG file. It has the 'import' snapshot listed in the XMP section of the metadata (as viewed by EXIFtool). I created a snapshot in a VC. In develop it shows up associated with both the master and the VC. I created a second snapshot on the master. It shows up in develop on both the master AND the VC. Neither show up in the XMP section of the DNG master. The only snapshot that is available in the XMP section of the master is the snapshot named "Import" which was created before and develop processing or VC was generated.
 
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[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=73'7.msg49751#msg49751 date=124828'6'6]
[quote author=Sean McCormack link=topic=73'7.msg49746#msg49746 date=1248279421]
Snapshots are stored in XMP. When you create or modify a Virtual copy, create a snapshot at the same time to have the settings stored in XMP. Snapshots saved inside a Virtual Copy are also available to the original file.
[/quote]Snapshots created in the VC are available to the master, but they are not written to the XMP metadata written to the master. I have a Master DNG file. It has the 'import' snapshot listed in the XMP section of the metadata (as viewed by EXIFtool). I created a snapshot in a VC. In develop it shows up associated with both the master and the VC. I created a second snapshot on the master. It shows up in develop on both the master AND the VC. Neither show up in the XMP section of the DNG master. The only snapshot that is available in the XMP section of the master is the snapshot named "Import" which was created before and develop processing or VC was generated.
[/quote]

Sean is correct. When you create a snapshot of the VC it is not only available to the master but is saved to the xmp file of the master. This works for xmp sidecar files to RAW files. Not tested with DNG files but can't see why it would not work.
 
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I'm not able to address what happens to XMP sidecar files. I don't get any sidecar files. I only have a DNG file that originated in my camera. LR writes to the XMP block of the original master DNG file. When I open the DNG file in Develop it has one snapshot named "Import". If I create a VC, Any snapshots created in ve VC are visible in the original master.
Here's what I've discovered since my earlier post:
Even though I have "Automatically write changes to XMP" checked, no new XMP snapshot data is written to the DNG master. In the VC, [Save Meta Data to File <Cntl S>] is grayed out. And I am unable to write XMP data to any file from the VC. If I switch back to the Original DNG master, all my snapshots for the VC show up in LR but have not been written to the master. (Remember "Automatically write changes to XMP" is checked) [Save Meta Data to File <Cntl S>] is no longer gray and only when I do a <cntl S> is the XMP data written to the XMP block of the DNG.
In another thread, JohnBeardy made a good case for using VCs over snapshots. To that I have started to use VCs and named presets embedded in the IPTC JobIdentifier field to identify exports that are sent to Flickr or have a file created. Now that I've discovered that I can write the snapshot to the XMP block of the original DNG, I'm not sure why I need a VC which only exists in the LR database

So to the OP, I'd like to amend my earlier comments and suggest that the Snapshot is the place to go to preserve multiple instruction sets as long as the snapshots are written to the XMP either in the XMP block or in an XMP Sidecar file. While it should happen automatically, it does not appear to be so in the case of master DNG files.
[quote author=MarkNicholas link=topic=73'7.msg49767#msg49767 date=12483'9714]
[quote author=clee'1l link=topic=73'7.msg49751#msg49751 date=124828'6'6]
[quote author=Sean McCormack link=topic=73'7.msg49746#msg49746 date=1248279421]
Snapshots are stored in XMP. When you create or modify a Virtual copy, create a snapshot at the same time to have the settings stored in XMP. Snapshots saved inside a Virtual Copy are also available to the original file.
[/quote]Snapshots created in the VC are available to the master, but they are not written to the XMP metadata written to the master. I have a Master DNG file. It has the 'import' snapshot listed in the XMP section of the metadata (as viewed by EXIFtool). I created a snapshot in a VC. In develop it shows up associated with both the master and the VC. I created a second snapshot on the master. It shows up in develop on both the master AND the VC. Neither show up in the XMP section of the DNG master. The only snapshot that is available in the XMP section of the master is the snapshot named "Import" which was created before and develop processing or VC was generated.
[/quote]

Sean is correct. When you create a snapshot of the VC it is not only available to the master but is saved to the xmp file of the master. This works for xmp sidecar files to RAW files. Not tested with DNG files but can't see why it would not work.
[/quote]
 
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[quote author=Sean McCormack link=topic=73'7.msg49746#msg49746 date=1248279421]
Snapshots are stored in XMP. When you create or modify a Virtual copy, create a snapshot at the same time to have the settings stored in XMP. Snapshots saved inside a Virtual Copy are also available to the original file.
[/quote]
This of course is pretty tiresome when you create a group of VCs at once.

You can see VCs and adjust, add metadata, and output them entirely independently of the master file, and work on multiple ones simultaneously, but the settings don't get written to the XMP. Snapshots are OldThink by comparison, simply landmarks in history. You can only find them by going to the individual image in Develop so you have to remember they are there (ie no smart collections or filtering on Snapshots). You are forced to adjust or output each one individually.

At some point I've no doubt Adobe will need to make the two concepts one. But just because Snapshots write to the XMP is not a wonderful reason for preferring them - after all, a load of other LR work doesn't get written to XMP but stays in the database. See Snapshots' XMP writing merely as a way of exchanging work with others apps (eg Bridge reads Snapshots) but use VCs if you want to work with alternative versions, and then backup the catalogue. Doing so with Snapshots is a great way to make work for yourself though.

John
 
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[quote author=johnbeardy link=topic=73'7.msg49778#msg49778 date=124833'937]
You can see VCs and adjust, add metadata, and output them entirely independently of the master file
[/quote]This is not entirely correct. the original image data remains in the original master file. So you are not independent of the original master file. Delete the master, you also delete all associated VC's.
But just because Snapshots write to the XMP is not a wonderful reason for preferring them - after all, a load of other LR work doesn't get written to XMP but stays in the database. See Snapshots' XMP writing merely as a way of exchanging work with others apps (eg Bridge reads Snapshots) but use VCs if you want to work with alternative versions, and then backup the catalogue. Doing so with Snapshots is a great way to make work for yourself though.
Click to expand...
Having adjustment settings available in the XMP is an important reason to maintain snapshots in the XMP. It is the only way I have found to provide this information to other programs that won't have access to the LR catalog. If compaany XYZ develops a better Lightroom than Adobe, I would hate to have to figure out how to import all those adjustments into the next generation of DAM/image processing.

You are correct that there needs to be some merging of the two distinct functionalities in LR. as neither one totally satisfiesrequirements for reproucability of exported adjusted image data.
 
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This is not entirely correct. the original image data remains in the original master file. So you are not independent of the original master file. Delete the master, you also delete all associated VC's.
Click to expand...

Correct, though that's kinda too obvious to state, isn't it?

Having adjustment settings available in the XMP is an important reason to maintain snapshots in the XMP. It is the only way I have found to provide this information to other programs that won't have access to the LR catalog. If compaany XYZ develops a better Lightroom than Adobe, I would hate to have to figure out how to import all those adjustments into the next generation of DAM/image processing.
Click to expand...

In theory, yes it might be possible to use the XMP to translate one program's adjustments to another and explode out the alternative versions, or one could do those jobs by scripting the two apps to talk together, or by SQL. The latter two approaches would be more practical with Aperture, for instance (I have looked). In any case, even if the other program's rendition was vaguely acceptable, that's more work than I believe anyone will undertake. Having the Snapshot info in the XMP is useful if you want to exchange settings with Bridge/ACR now, but using it for future-proofing? Surely that's a pipe dream.

John
 
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[quote author=johnbeardy link=topic=73'7.msg49812#msg49812 date=124835798']
This is not entirely correct. the original image data remains in the original master file. So you are not independent of the original master file. Delete the master, you also delete all associated VC's.
Click to expand...

Correct, though that's kinda too obvious to state, isn't it?[/quote]Over here, we take our independence seriously. And here in Texas, even more so. :)
 
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A while back I made a feature request for a snapshot / VC management tool that would would simplify / automate the management of snapshots and VC's. If Smart Collections were able to filter out those masters with snapshots and VC's that would be an enormous help to me. As said earlier you basically have to "remember" which masters you have created snapshots. VC's can be filtered but some sort of mangement toll would be most welcome. :)
 
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