Capture date query

[ColMac9090]

Lightroom Version Number

LR Classic 11.1

Operating System

1. Windows 10

I am using my Epson scanner to scan in a lot of old Family History documents, and managing them in Lightroom Classic. The eventual aim will be to change the capture date to reflect the original date of the document - in the batch I'm working on, these will all be btwn 1914 and 1918. They will then be added to my genealogy software with file names & capture dates reflecting the original source document date.

Yesterday (5th January) I exported a batch of just under 700 images from my main LR Catalogue, and imported them into an empty catalogue on my wife's laptop where she is working on them. I then deleted the files from my main catalogue - after checking they were safely re-imported on the lap-top.)

I'm now seeing some strange behaviour on the dates (before any alterations are made).

The first screen grab (above) shows that my wife is working on a batch of 8 photos all with a capture date of 6th December 2021 (ie the date the original scans were captured). However, the right hand column clearly shows a capture date of 5th Jan 2022, the date import was done). I would expect this date on the right to read 6th December also. Both dates cannot be correct. All 8 images in this batch show 5th Jan on the RHS.

However, the batch immediately above (image below) - 69 images captured on 24th November 2021 - shows the expected date of 24/11/21 on the RHS.

ur

There are other images showing the 5th Jan, while some other show their expected date. I have not checked all 677 records, but I cannot see any pattern as to which date is shown!

Any suggestions welcome as to what I might have done wrong in the transfer, or is LR having a bad day? I know there are multiple dates within the metadata, but why would behaviour be different between different dates in the filter?

Although I have deleted the originals from my main database, I do have 5 backups of the LRCAT file, and three full back-ups of the image files, so I can go back and -re-create the scenario to re-test it if required.

 

[Y.K]

First of all, to be sure that everything transfers correctly from one catalog to the other, you shouldn’t export the photos and import them. You should instead Export them as a Catalog. You can put them in a Collection, right click on it and choose to export just those photos as a catalog. Choose to “include Negative files” when asked. On the destination catalog run the “Import from another catalog” command to merge this temporary transfer catalog into it.

When you exported the files normally, you might have not selected (on a particular export batch) that the pictures should include all Metadata. That’s perhaps why LrC shows the export date instead of the capture (scan) date.


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[ColMac9090]

Thanks for the response, but I apologise for giving incomplete info on my initial post. I did indeed export as Catalog, then import as catalog, and included files with the export.

That’s perhaps why LrC shows the export date instead of the capture (scan) date.

But my problem with this is that it should be one date or the other. Both should not appear.

 

[Y.K]

But my problem with this is that it should be one date or the other. Both should not appear.

You are right. Either it’s a bug or the strange way LrC has of putting the values from one metadata field to another when the value is missing from the second.

Try “writing metadata to files” (Cmd or Ctrl + S) before exporting them as a catalog. It will not hurt but it might help.


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[ColMac9090]

Try “writing metadata to files” (Cmd or Ctrl + S) before exporting them as a catalog.

Again I had done this step, I was trying to keep the query simple, but yes I had done a save metadata first

 

[johnrellis]

LR behaves badly with files that are missing capture dates stored in their metadata (e.g. scans). One bad behavior is that, for photos missing capture dates, LR uses the current file date-modified as its capture date. (That's the date that the operating system last changed the file on behalf of any app.) As the file's date-modified changes, LR immediately updates its notion of the capture date!

Depending on how you copied the photos from one laptop to the other, that might have changed the date-modified. And doing Metadata > Save Metadata To File will change the file's date-modified. After each of these events, what LR displays as the capture date will change on the fly to "now".

To stop this incessant changing of capture dates, select all of the scans missing capture dates, do Metadata > Edit Capture Time, and immediately click Change All. That will not, repeat not, repeat not, set all the files to have the same capture date. Rather, it will cause LR to properly record in the catalog the capture date currently shown for each photo. Then if you follow up with Metadata > Save Metadata To File, LR will write that capture date into the industry-standard metadata field recording capture date (EXIFateTimeOriginal).

Adobe has never made handling scans well a priority (LR's design center was always images produced by digital cameras). I stopped years ago trying to persuade them to fix all the problems LR has with photos missing capture dates. Internally, it's a misdesigned mess, and they've never cared enough to assign a senior architect to clean it all up. The last time they tried to fix some of the bugs, they introduced this weird date-modified behavior.

 

[PhilBurton]

LR behaves badly with files that are missing capture dates stored in their metadata (e.g. scans). One bad behavior is that, for photos missing capture dates, LR uses the current file date-modified as its capture date. (That's the date that the operating system last changed the file on behalf of any app.) As the file's date-modified changes, LR immediately updates its notion of the capture date!

Depending on how you copied the photos from one laptop to the other, that might have changed the date-modified. And doing Metadata > Save Metadata To File will change the file's date-modified. After each of these events, what LR displays as the capture date will change on the fly to "now".

To stop this incessant changing of capture dates, select all of the scans missing capture dates, do Metadata > Edit Capture Time, and immediately click Change All. That will not, repeat not, repeat not, set all the files to have the same capture date. Rather, it will cause LR to properly record in the catalog the capture date currently shown for each photo. Then if you follow up with Metadata > Save Metadata To File, LR will write that capture date into the industry-standard metadata field recording capture date (EXIFateTimeOriginal).

Adobe has never made handling scans well a priority (LR's design center was always images produced by digital cameras). I stopped years ago trying to persuade them to fix all the problems LR has with photos missing capture dates. Internally, it's a misdesigned mess, and they've never cared enough to assign a senior architect to clean it all up. The last time they tried to fix some of the bugs, they introduced this weird date-modified behavior.

And there is an additional issue with scanned film image dates. If you know the exact date of a film image, that's good. But what if you know only the year, or the year and the month? Or a range of years? All "fuzzy dates." Unless I'm wrong, there is no way to deal with this issue in Lightroom, or even with EXIFTool in a way that will be understood by Lightroom.

Phil Burton

 

[johnrellis]

There was a discussion about this just a few days ago:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/ligh...s/year-only-capture-time/m-p/12631508#M258920

 

[ColMac9090]

To stop this incessant changing of capture dates, select all of the scans missing capture dates, do Metadata > Edit Capture Time, and immediately click Change All. That will not, repeat not, repeat not, set all the files to have the same capture date. Rather, it will cause LR to properly record in the catalog the capture date currently shown for each photo. Then if you follow up with Metadata > Save Metadata To File, LR will write that capture date into the industry-standard metadata field recording capture date (EXIFateTimeOriginal).

Many thanks for this information. I will do that tonight

And there is an additional issue with scanned film image dates. If you know the exact date of a film image, that's good. But what if you know only the year, or the year and the month? Or a range of years? All "fuzzy dates." Unless I'm wrong, there is no way to deal with this issue in Lightroom, or even with EXIFTool in a way that will be understood by Lightroom.

Phil Burton

Thanks, I was aware of that issue, and I had worked out a plan to deal with this, it turns out it is exactly what was discussed in this thread.

There was a discussion about this just a few days ago:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/ligh...s/year-only-capture-time/m-p/12631508#M258920

 

[PhilBurton]

Many thanks for this information. I will do that tonight

Thanks, I was aware of that issue, and I had worked out a plan to deal with this, it turns out it is exactly what was discussed in this thread.

I also like the approach in that thread. I once talked with an academic librarian who used a DAM which has explicit fields for fuzzy dates, but that DAM would be totally inappropriate for a retired amateur photographer using a desktop and a relatively small collection.

The approach in that thread is far superior to using many, many keywords like
1981year
1981yearquarter1
1981yearMarch

 

[ColMac9090]

The approach in that thread is far superior to using many, many keywords like

Agreed