How do I move Lightroom to a new computer?
It’s a question that comes up over and over again, because people expect it to be complicated. It’s not really! Even moving Windows to Mac is a straightforward operation.
First, a bit of preparation will go a long towards preventing headaches…
- Make sure your regular backups are up to date.
- Set Lightroom’s folder panel to show just a few top level folders, to make it easy to relink them if they get confused in the move. Instructions are here: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/blog/2008/12/17/i-have-a-long-list-of-folders-can-i-change-it-to-show-the-folder-hierarchy/
- Install Lightroom (the program) on the new computer. No need to install off the cd and then install updates, as each update is the entire program, so just skip along to the latest update which can be downloaded from Adobe’s website.
Now we’re ready to move. Think about how you’re going to move the files – an external hard drive is the easiest option.
If you’re switching from Windows to Mac in the move, remember that OS X can’t natively write to a NTFS formatted drive, so either format as FAT32, or remember you’ll need to copy the data off and reformat again once you’ve finished moving.
You’ll want to transfer all of your presets, which are entirely cross-platform, over to the new computer, and possibly your preferences file too, if you’re moving Windows to Windows or Mac to Mac. You’ll find all of the file locations here: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/blog/2008/12/15/default-file-locations-lightroom-2/ Bear in mind that these are hidden locations on Windows, so you’ll need to turn go to Start menu > Control Panel > Folder Options > View > Advanced Settings and turn on ‘Show hidden files and folders’ in order to find them.
You have 2 options for the catalog and images move – either moving and relinking, which is generally my preferred option, or using Export as Catalog, which is handy if data is scattered across your computer.
Option 1 – move and relink
- Find and copy your catalog to the new computer. If you don’t know where to find it, go to Edit menu > Catalog Settings (Windows) or Lightroom menu > Catalog Settings (Mac) and it’ll be listed there.
- Find and copy your images to the new computer. Personally I like to use File Synchronization software to make sure I don’t miss anything.
- Open your catalog on the new computer – double clicking on it is the quickest way.
- There may now be question marks all over the place, if it can’t find the files. It’s just a question of relinking those top level folders with the updated folder locations. Instructions here: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/blog/2009/02/21/lightroom-thinks-my-photos-are-missing-how-do-i-%ef%ac%81x-it/
- Double check everything is up and running before you delete the old computer!
Option 2 – export as catalog
- Open Lightroom and go to File > Export as Catalog.
- Select a location on your external hard drive, and ‘include preview files’ and ‘include negative files’ so that everything is taken along.
- Press Export and let it run. It will take some time.
- Now on your external hard drive should be a catalog, with an Images folder containing all of your negative files. It should warn you if it couldn’t transfer some files.
- Transfer the external hard drive to the other machine.
- You could transfer the catalog itself (the *.lrcat file and *.lrdata file) to the new machine’s internal hard drive if you wish.
- Double-click on the catalog to open it.
- If you move the images, the drive letter changes between machines, or you’re moving between operating systems (i.e. Windows to Mac) you may still have to do the relinking listed in option 1.
- Double check everything is up and running before you delete the old computer!
You’re all set!
Hi victoria
Thank you for your advice. I had a couple of questions though as the .lrcat file proceedure isn’t working. Could you go to the LR Support Forum and see what i wrote?
Typically, in internet NG/forums, people respond with what they know, rather than to the question, so I feel that this thread will get sidetracked by somebody who didn’t answer the question.
[My pleasure Ken - VB]
Thanks for that.
I have another question too. How does this work with merging? I have LR2 on my PC, and will put on laptop for my travels. I want to be able to then merge my raw images and the changes I make on the road, back into the PC library at end of trip.
Is that more complicated?
Ta, Matt
[Hi Matt, well, that depends on whether anyone will be working on the desktop catalog while you're gone. If they're not, you could just copy the catalog back again. If they are, use Import from Catalog on your desktop and point to the laptop catalog, and it'll merge the changes - but obviously back up first. - VB]
Looks simple. I have a question before attempting transfer. Will all the editing history associated with each photo in a catalog also transfer over?
[Yes, as long as you do it this way. Everything contained in the catalog will be safely transferred. People only run into difficulty when they start re-importing files, rather than relinking the existing files. - VB]
Great, thanks.
A quick follow up question. Do you have any recommended settings, etc. for exporting the catalog?
Thanks.
[If you're exporting as catalog in order to move to a new computer, checking both the 'include previews' and 'include negatives' are a good idea - include previews simply saves you having to rebuild all of the previews again, and include negative copies the image files to the new location. - VB]
Ok, thanks. So, then exporting a catalog is different from exporting groups of photos where you have to say type of file, quality, etc.?
[Yes, it literally copies the catalog (or part of it) to a new location, including all data, and the previews/original images too, if you so choose. It's ideal for transferring all or part of the catalog between different computers, whether to a new computer or between a desktop/laptop. - VB]
Hi Victoria. What happens if you buy a new desktop with much more memory to speed things up and to use it you need to migrate to 64 bit Vista? All my important files are on external drives (one a Drobo) which I carry from place to place where I have other computers including a laptop. All the other computers except the new one are running XP. What kind of a mess is this going to create if I decide to update a catalog by exporting it from from the laptop using the desktop on the new Vista computer or any other intra-computer tasks?
Thanks
Michael.
[Exactly the same principles apply, whichever operating systems are involved - even Windows to Mac and back. Only glitches you're likely to hit are missing files (covered above) and possibly file permissions with Vista, which tends to be a bit fussy, but are easily fixed. - VB]
I need to move some photo folders to a new drive. How do I move them and have Lightroom still know where they reside?
Thank you,
Mike B
[Mike, moving the files on disc, and then using the relinking as in the post above is the best option, as you can use file synchronization software with a verification option. Other option is to go to Library menu > New Folder and show new drive, and then drag the files within Lightroom. - VB]
Hi,
Quick question, my old computer died on me i have managed to save the hard drive and it is now set up as an external drive on my new computer. The problem is all my raw photos were saved on external drives but the lightroom catalogue was on the compute5r drive, i have the lightroom catalogue but am unable to get it into the lightroom on the new computer. What am i doing wrong?? The catalogue has not been exported from LR.
Is there any way to get all the edit information on to the new computer without having to just import all my raw images and do the work again??
My old computer was xp and i am now working on vista 64bit
Thanks
Hi Amanda. Opening the catalog, wherever it’s stored, should just be a case of double-clicking on it. You can pick it up and move it to a new location before you do so – internal drives are usually faster than externals. When you’ve opened the catalog, it may ask where the photos are now, you may need to follow the instructions above for relinking the originals if they’re shown as missing. If Lightroom comes up with an error saying that you can’t use the catalog before it’s not writable, check the file and folder permissions, as Vista can be a bit fussy. – VB
Thanks for the advice Victoria, i have just tried opening the catalog in lightroom and it came up with the error can not open as it is not writable….do you know where can i change the permissions in vista?
Thank you
Hi,
Ok so i figured out how to change the permissons and it has opened the catalog but now says no phots in selected items…..any ideas….please
Thank you
That was quick! I was just booting up a Windows machine to double check. Try clicking on All Photographs (Catalog panel, top left) and see if they appear. You may have a filter turned on.
Unfortunatly it says no photos in all photographs aswell. Do i have to inport a folder aswell or the original images??
Thanks again
Sounds like you may have opened the wrong catalog Amanda. Just try it again – and check the file size of the catalog, as that’ll give you a clue that you’ve got the right one. You don’t want to have to import anything, otherwise you’d have to redo all your work!
I’m sorry for you if you think that your instructions are easy. If that’s your opinion of easy then you are much more of a geek than 99% of the population. How many esoteric pages of instruction did you include? How many additional web sites does one need to go to in order to accomplish something that should be so damn simple. We are photographers not computer nerds or IT wonks. If Adobe really wants people to use the program as intended they need to make this extremely important function much, much simpler.
[I've known plenty of computer illiterate people do it just fine, and comment that it's much easier than they thought. After all, moving to a new computer doesn't happen very often! The instructions above are for a one way move, take into account a range of operating systems, and a couple of different ways of accomplishing it, so they are more complex than a 2 way conversation on the subject. If you some help, feel free to drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net and we’ll talk you through it, but it’s nothing to be worried about. – VB
Hi Victoria-
I think I’m on the right track with your advice, but my issue is this:
Following Kelby’s advice in his Lightroom 2 book, I complied ALL of my folders (lightroom previews, My Pictures, etc.) into one “MY LIGHTROOM” folder, which I moved off of my computer to an external hard drive (my computer was 99.9% full of photos and was running about as fast as a one-legged elephant). Now when I open the LRM2 application on my computer, it says there is no catalog (right, because I moved it). However, I’m still unable to relink from my external drive.
Do I need to reload my photos to my computer and start over again from scratch? I’m not sure what I did, but I’m having a hard time undoing it. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I have some work to do, and I can’t access any of my photos in LRM now…
Thanks,
Cara
[Hi Cara, you should just be able to double click on the catalog (which you've moved) to open it, and from that point on, it should know where to find the catalog. You might find it says the photos are missing (because you've moved them) but it's just a case of relinking them. If you get stuck, drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net and we'll get you sorted out in no time.- VB]
This is extremely helpful, and so far it all seems to be working fine. I have a question about “File Synchronization software” that you mentioned above. I am working on a MacPro and a MacBookPro as well as a PC occasionally all on my personal network. I would like to keep my systems synched when it comes to Lightroom, should I be doing that in the above manner or with some software?
Thanks for all the information!!
[Shelly, how are you planning on moving the files back and forth? If you're regularly working on multiple machines, it's often simpler to keep the catalog on the external drive along with the images. How many pictures are we talking about? - VB]
I have about 15500+ for the last couple years in the Library, I would like to go back and include the images I have on other external hard drives from a few years before that. I do the majority of processing on the MacPro (or I will be as soon as I get this all set up). The MacBook is used when I travel and then merged back home (or that’s the plan anyway). I Have a Drobo to set up, so this idea of keeping the catalogue along with the images on that is a good idea I think. All my images are on an external now. Thanks Victoria, your insight and knowledge is very helpful! I do all this tech stuff on my own though I am no tech, I just bumble along much longer then I am sure I need to.
[Really pleased to help Shelly. I guess the question is whether you need to edit the files when you're away too, or whether just being able to view the existing previews would work for you. If you only need to be able to view the offline files on your MacBook, you could keep the catalog and files on your Mac Pro (faster than the Drobo), and just copy the catalog and previews to your MacBook or external. There's a few ways to skin this cat! If you want to talk it through in more detail, drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net. - VB]
Hi Victoria
I use my laptop for my lightroom work. I keep a certain amount of my photos on the laptop with the rest on an external hard drive. Both laptop and external hard drive are full. Normally I would just use lightroom to drag and drop the photo file from one drive to another. this way LR knows where they are and adjusts the link (correct? ) In this case though I would like to leave the existing photos on the old hard drive (as a back up) and copy them to the new hard drive with lightroom having a link to the new drive. I could of course use LR to move them to the new HD and then windows explorer to copy them back to the old HD but that is two operations which include moving jpg. So the question is, CAN I do it in one function? Thanks heaps
[I can't think of a way to do it in one go. I'd do an OS or file sync software copy to transfer to the new drive, and then use the right click Update Folder Location on the parent folder to direct Lightroom to the new drive, which would leave the existing drive backup untouched. Just make sure they show in a folder hierarchy (the link was in this post) and it should be really quick to do. - VB]
Hi Victoria,
In my ideal world, I’d have the Lightroom program AND all of my photos on an external hard drive, which I would then connect to a number of computers (I sometimes work with my Mac Laptop, other times with my desk model IMac. If I did that, and manipulated a photo on one computer, or sorted and tagged photos on one computer, would this work then appear when the external drive was plugged into another computer?
Thanks!
[Hi Bill. Yeah, that theory works very well. I've never tried putting the program on the external as well - you could just as happily have it installed properly on both computers under the license - but the main thing is to have the images AND the catalog on the external drive. The catalog (*.lrcat file) is the bit that holds all of the changes to your images, and you could just double click to open it and work directly on that drive. Works fine, just a little slower than internal drives! VB
Victoria,
This is probably a duh type question, but here it goes. When I get my new computer and download LR from the website, how does it know that I have already purchased a copy of the program.
Thanks, and I really enjoy your blog (just discovered it the past week.
Jeff
[Hi Jeff. It won't know that you've already bought it, but when you bought it there will have been a serial number - either on an email, or on the CD case if you bought the box. If you don't know where to find it, try logging into your account on Adobe.com - they'll have a record if you filled in the registration details when you entered it the first time. If you've still got it installed on your old computer, look under Help menu > System Info and it'll be listed there too. - VB]
I’m moving to a new computer, Windows Vista 64 from XP. I followed you instructions for option 1 and it looks like everything copied over fine but when I double click on the catalog I’m getting a runtime error. Any suggestions?
P.S. I’m on Lightroom 1.4 if that matters. Thanks.
Victoria, Just wanted to let you know that I solved my problem. I Loaded Lightroom on my new machine as administrator and loaded all my files as User. Once I opened up lightroom under my User account all is well. I am relinking my files now. Thanks for your instructions. They were clear. Vista is not.
[Glad to hear you got it all sorted while I was out! - VB]
[...] How do I move Lightroom to a new computer? By the Lightroom Queen, Victoria Bampton http://www.lightroomqueen.com/blog/2009/02/28/how-do-i-move-lightroom-to-a-new-computer/ [...]
Dear Victoria,
I’ve just followed your great instructions moving from PC to a Mac. Everything went well – I think! What puzzles me now is that some – most – of my folders now display a somewhat greyed out arrow i/o the full solid grey arrow that I normally saw.
Any idea what this means? I can access my pictures alright, just wonder why this is.
I wonder if it has an impact when moving folders from one drive to another. It seems that when I move folders, LR still leaves the empty folder on the “old” drive, and when trying to delete it, it says it can’t as there are locked files inside; yet, there is none as they have been moved to a new drive.. Makes sense?
[Hi Lars. A somewhat greyed out arrow usually means that the folder has no subfolders. Would that fit with what you're seeing? If not, drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net and post a screenshot, and we'll see what we can do.
For the locked files, how was the old drive formatted? And which computer is it connected to? A permissions problem would be the obvious reason. - VB]
Hi Victoria, Thanks for your answers. Yes, you’re right about the the grayed out arrow – it’s indeed the subfolder yes/no indication.
For the locked files, the old drive that I used to transfer to my new Mac was Windows formatted (NCTS) and I used to work from a Windows laptop. Does that play a role in the new setup?
[Ah, yes, that's probably it then. Mac OS can natively read from NTFS, but can't write (or delete etc). You should be able to REMOVE the folders from the catalog (when you press delete, it'll ask whether to remove or delete, choose remove) and then when you hook your old drive back up to a Windows machine you'll be able to delete anything that's left - it's probably a Windows thumbs.db file or something like that that's left. If you've already transferred everything off that old drive, and you want to continue using it with your Mac, reformat using Disk Utility to HFS (or FAT if you're wanting to use it cross-platform). - VB]
ok, let me see if I get this right. I used to work with my LR catalog on a NTFS-formatted external harddrive. I connected this drive to my new Mac and then copied the pictures and the LR catalog onto a Mac-formatted drive. From the Mac-formatted drive, I copied the LR catalog and linked it to the pictures on the Mac-formatted drive.
Is this what you say is giving me trouble? How should I otherwise have done it? Brgds, Lars.
Think I figured where the issue is. I had not “unlocked” the folder that I had moved from the NTFS-drive to the Mac-drive. Hence Mac saw it as “locked” and would thus not move the folder. In the “Get Info” menu, I unticked “locked” and moving between drives now functions flawlessly.
Thanks for all your help – which I highly appreciated came as promptly as it did, as there’s nothing worse sitting with these issue and having to wait for a long time to get help. Thanks again.
[Now you're answering your own questions Lars....!!! Well done! - VB]
Hi Victoria. I currently have a desktop PC and an older laptop, both running LR 2.4. The laptop is old & slow, I was thinking of getting a MacBook Pro. Is there a way to download LR to the new Mac laptop & erase it from the old PC laptop, thereby keeping just 2 copies (the limit, i believe) of LR, or must I buy a new Mac version of LR for the MacBook, even though I only need it on 2 computers, the PC desktop nad the new MacBook? Thanks,
Jay
[Hi Jay, yes, you can just download the 2.4 Mac version from the Adobe website and enter your serial number when asked. Just uninstall from the old PC laptop to stay within the license agreement terms of only on 2 machines. There's no activation to worry about. - VB]
Thanks Victoria. How does LR know that I’ve uninstalled fromthe PC? Do I uninstall then try to download to the new Mac while the old laptop is still connected to the internet, or try to download 1st & LR will prompt me to uninstall 1 copy? Thanks again,
jay
[It doesn't - Adobe are trusting you.
- VB]
“Personally I like to use File Synchronization software”.
It has been asked previously. Wwhat you are suggesting using? Are there one or two you like or what do you use?
Why can’t this synching be built-in to LR?
[I like Vice Versa on Windows and Chronosync for Mac personally - they both have fully functional free trials which are long enough to complete the move even if you don't want to purchase them. The reason I like File Sync software is that most also offer copy verification. As most file corruption happens while files are being rewritten in a new location, I want to know that everything has transferred correctly. That's not just specific to Lightroom - I'd want the same validation for transferring any of my files. For a move as big as transferring to a new computer, I might not notice any corruption for quite some time otherwise, and by that time the old computer would be gone. However if you don't want to go that route, and just want to use Lightroom, the Export as Catalog option works well too. - VB]
Secondly, on my laptop running LR 1.4, I chose “export as catalog” (including export negative file and previews). I then, via my LAN and LR 2.4 on my desktop PC, imported the Ircat file.
My only “import catalog” choices were “Supported files (*.Ircat; *Irdb; *aglib)”.
The Irdata file is not an option for importing! Why? When I drill down with Explorer (so I can see the files), the files are called “NOINDEX files”.
[The *.lrdata file is all of your preview files, not the catalog. Alongside the *.lrdata file should be a *.lrcat file - that's your catalog including all of your information about the files. If you've checked 'included negative files' to move all of your images too, then there should be a Photos or Images folder alongside too. You will have to actually copy those files onto the new computer - or at least the *.lrcat file, as it won't let you open it over a network because of corruption risks. - VB]
Why am I asking this? Because, when I try and edit images on my desktop PC they show as missing. I was expecting to export the complete catalog from the laptop, along with my edits and the “negative files”, or originals (NEF or DNG). Even though I selected to export the “negative file”, I obviously can’t import them via LR. Just link them…True? I have to use some other means to physically copy or move these files?
If I choose “import photos from device” in LR will I get what I want; the edited dngs? Then I suppose I will have to re-link them?
What is the best method to do this? Why is this not intuitive for me? I’ve read the suggestions and I’m not completely getting it. I want to know the process rather than experiment on my own and get things fouled up. Though I’ve worked in LR a long time this is my first attempt to move LR edited images onto my desktop.
[Nowhere in the instructions above did it mention Importing from Catalog.... so you might want to go back and check the instructions before you go any further. In short, you'd want to export the catalog to an external drive (or onto the desktop network location), double click to open it on your desktop, and all of the photos should all be available for you to start working. If the photos are going missing while moving that way, something's going wrong. At no point in these instructions do you need to import anything.
If you need a hand doing this properly, drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net, and we'll take you through it one step at a time. - VB]
Dear Victoria,
I have tried unsuccessfully to transfer my LR2.4 catalog from my old PC (vista) to my new iMac, using a set of 3 DVDs and copying the .lcrat files from one computer to another.
So I decided to follow your instructions carefully, steps by steps. First hurdle: how do you format your hard drive to FAT32? I don’t understand. What does it mean?
[Hard drives can be formatted in different ways - usually NTFS for Windows, HFS for Mac, FAT is cross-platform. Which hard drive are you planning to format? Is it a spare external? And are the images going to stay on that drive once you've transferred them, or are you going to transfer them to the internal drive? - VB]
Hi – I have successfully synched LR2 catalog from desktop to laptop (both Mac), but the ratings do not appear after transfer. Any suggestions? Much thanks!
[Hi Kate, ok, explain a little further? Are they there if you look in the Metadata panel? It sounds like they're probably just hidden by your current view options. - VB]
Hi, I am running LR 2.4 on a Desktop PC and a Laptop. I went on a vacation so I took an external HD with me. I had created a new LR catalog on the external HD and had imported the keyword structure from my DeskTop machine into the LapTop. I took m pictures and day by day on the laptop applied keywords, including adding new keywords. When I got back, my plan was to import from catalog including negatives from the external drive back to my main LR catalog. When I try to import, LR asks from which catalog, I tell it, it does some stuff then issues “Lightroom cannot import this catalog due to an unknown error” and quits. This happens shortly after I press the IMPORT button after identifying to import all photos.
[What happens if you run Optimize Catalog or you test the integrity of that catalog whilst doing a backup? Don't panic, there's a few options. Probably easiest to drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net where we can discuss it in more detail. - VB]
I have a group of photos (1500) that I would like to export as a catalog to DVD. (So they can be archived for now) The problem is that the catalog created is too big to sit on a single DVD. Is there a way to have the Catalog span two or more DVD’s? Any suggestions would be appreciated
[You could export as catalog to your hard drive, and then use other disc burning software to span it to DVD. The catalog itself should be fine, and the resulting images would split over multiple DVD's. - VB]
I followed the instructions above (ie backed up all my data, downloaded the new LR 2.5, and COPIED the entire Lightroom folder from my external HD to the new HD. This included my catalogues, previews, presets and pics). Everything works fine except for two issues:
1) In the Library Module, LR displays the full path of my folders (ie Documents and setting\kaz\my pics\…) How do I get LR to just display the folder name?
2) All my presets are missing? How do I get them back?
Thanks for your help…
[Whereabouts is the folders panel showing the full path name - in one long line as the name of a single folder, or is it showing a hierarchy of folders? Feel free to email me a screenshot of the Folders panel if you're not sure. The presets - did you copy them to the same location - and did you have 'store presets with catalog' checked in Preferences, and if so, have you checked it again on this computer? - VB]
Thanks for the quick reply…I sent you some screen shots of my folders panel, basically it’s showing one long line as the name of the folder (even when I try to rename it within LR the dialog box appears with the actaul folder name). As to the presets, after reading your reply I was able to get them back!
Hi
I found your blog from lightroomforums when looking at how to reinstall LR on a new machine. Whilst had few problems, going back over your guide solved them and everything is working fine.
Just wanted to say thanks for this great site and for the time and effort you must put into this support!
[Thanks Richard! - VB]
I am looking for the reply to Kaz’s from Sep 22. I only want to display the folder instead of the full path.
Lenny
[Hey Lenny. Kaz needed to go to the + button on the Folders panel and choose the Folder Name Only option. Give that a shot and see if it does the trick for you. - VB]
Thanks- Lot’s of great information. I am upgrading to 10.6 via a clean install. I have my entire system backed up as a bootable clone on an external drive. So all this stuff is there to bring over. I want to do my 10.6 install to a freshly formatted disk in order to leave the skeletons behind and build on a clean foundation. Extra work, but worth it in the long run. I appreciate all the work you put into making this info available to anyone interested.
I have purchased Lightroom and want to know if I can install on more than 1 of my computers. Is this teh case?
[Yes, the license allows for installation on 2 computers (i.e. desktop and laptop) and they can be both Windows, both Mac or 1 of each. - VB]
Victoria,
I just wanted to say thank you for your extremely valuable insight into this process. I have over 24,000 images to convert from PC to MAC and although it took 16 hours overnight to file transfer and then get everything in the right place. It was soo worth it. Everything works seamlessly. You are the best !
HUS VAR
Victoria: Lots of great info. Thanks much. Just wanted to quickly confirm what I think I should do in my case. Planning on doing a clean upgrade/install of windows 7 on my PC. I maintain the lightroom catalog, previews and all images on a separate internal hard drive. So I’m thinking when I come up in windows 7 after the clean install, all I would need to do is reinstall LR and then just double click on the catalog, and all should be well. I would ensure that this internal hard drive got configured with the same drive letter (F). Does that sound correct? That I don’t really have to move anything? Thanks.
[You might want to backup the presets and any plugins too, but other than that, yes, sounds fine. The only glitch you might run into, off the top of my head, is Windows 7's delightful security features.
- VB]
Does anyone know step by step how to correct the permissions problem in vista? I succesffuly moved a cat to external USB drive and was usig it for sometime before it stopped working. Cannot get the lrcat on either drive to open…local and external.
Thanks
[Tim, if you haven't got this working yet, drop by http://www.lightroomforums.net and we'll get you sorted out. I've managed to skip Vista personally!
- VB]